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Tell me about your spiritual jour- ney. Where are you today, and how did you come to be there? I grew up in a small town in New Jer- sey, my mother being a Roman Catholic convert to my father’s Pres- byterianism. We attended church, a bland service with a great organist and some nice liturgical moments at Christmas and Easter. My first job was there; I remember sneaking away to enjoy quiet time in the sanc- tuary. Being inclined to creativity and not academics, I never performed well in school. At age 17 I was removed from my school and placed in an institu- tion for troubled adolescents. The next 18 months were lost. While fish- ing my cat’s toy out from under the refrigerator I pulled out a book on healing prayer by the Indian Yogi Paramahansa Yogananda. It sparked in me a real yearning for spiritual healing and the conviction that this is what was needed if my life was to be saved. Later, a Roman Catholic teacher at college whom I much admired helped me to begin searching my own tradition. I discovered there a spirituality as compelling as the East- ern religions I was by then in the habit of studying. I had gone to church up until my late teens and no one told me about the Desert Fathers or the Cloud of Unknowing (or any of the saints). So at age 26 I entered a Zen monastery where I studied, both in residence and out, for about seven years. The next step in training would have been to pass through the ceremony called, in the Japanese, Behold God — 20 M INUTES WITH J AMES K RUEGER The Rev. James Krueger (right) is founder of Mons Nubifer Sanctus in Delhi, New York, a center for studying contemplative Christian life. He writes regularly at the center’s website, Mons Nubifer Sanctus (monsnubifer.org). The Rev. Will Brown interviewed Fr. Krueger about his path to the contemplative life and what he wants to convey to other pilgrims. (Continued on next page) May 24, 2015 • THE LIVING CHURCH 11

Behold God

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An interview with James Krueger, from The Living Church.

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Page 1: Behold God

Tell me about your spiritual jour-ney. Where are you today, andhow did you come to be there?I grew up in a small town in New Jer-sey, my mother being a RomanCatholic convert to my father’s Pres-byterianism. We attended church, abland service with a great organistand some nice liturgical moments atChristmas and Easter. My first jobwas there; I remember sneakingaway to enjoy quiet time in the sanc-tuary.

Being inclined to creativity and notacademics, I never performed well in

school. At age 17 I was removed frommy school and placed in an institu-tion for troubled adolescents. Thenext 18 months were lost. While fish-ing my cat’s toy out from under therefrigerator I pulled out a book onhealing prayer by the Indian YogiParamahansa Yogananda. It sparkedin me a real yearning for spiritualhealing and the conviction that this iswhat was needed if my life was to besaved.

Later, a Roman Catholic teacher atcollege whom I much admiredhelped me to begin searching my

own tradition. I discovered there aspirituality as compelling as the East-ern religions I was by then in thehabit of studying. I had gone tochurch up until my late teens and noone told me about the Desert Fathersor the Cloud of Unknowing (or anyof the saints).

So at age 26 I entered a Zenmonastery where I studied, both inresidence and out, for about sevenyears. The next step in trainingwould have been to pass through theceremony called, in the Japanese,

Behold God

— 20 MINUTES WITH JAMES KRUEGER —

The Rev. James Krueger (right) is founderof Mons Nubifer Sanctus in Delhi, NewYork, a center for studying contemplativeChristian life. He writes regularly at thecenter’s website, Mons Nubifer Sanctus(monsnubifer.org). The Rev. Will Browninterviewed Fr. Krueger about his path tothe contemplative life and what he wantsto convey to other pilgrims.

(Continued on next page)

May 24, 2015 • THE LIVING CHURCH 11

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12 THE LIVING CHURCH • May 24, 2015

Jukai by which one becomes Bud-dhist. I had already gone throughsuch a ceremony — baptism — andbelonged to Christ, so I drifted awayfrom Zen. By this time I had discov-ered Christian monasticism andmade an Episcopal monastery myspiritual home. Though becoming amonk in this community would nothave been a good long-term fit, I wasthere as often as possible.

A suggestion of Holy Ordersplanted a seed in my ear and, in anutshell, I was ordained to the priest-hood in the summer of 2014 with thevision of a ministry devoted to con-templative formation geared to peo-ple living and working in secular sit-uations. A board of directors wasgathered and Mons Nubifer Sanctuswas formed. I began running retreatsin my wife’s old farmhouse, and amnow serving as interim priest-in-charge at Saint James Lake Delawarewith the generous blessing of theparish to run programs at this extraor-dinary place.

What should the name MonsNubifer Sanctus connote?Latin for “Holy Cloud-Bearing Moun-tain,” the name signifies the HolyMountain of Exodus, the meetingplace of God and man. The cloud ofGod’s presence descended and restedon the mountain, and Moses ascendedthe mountain and entered the cloud,there to commune with God (Ex.24:18). There is a hermeneutical tradi-tion running through the long historyof Christian spirituality that reads thisand similar passages, especially thoseabout the Transfiguration, as ex-pressing the essence of contempla-tive prayer.

What’s the difference betweenmeditation and contemplation?In meditation one normally focuseson an object, such as a passage ofScripture, an image (mental or phys-ical), a bodily sensation, and so on.

Contemplation, though the word isoften used today in the sense of“thinking about” something, is with-out object. In contemplation oneempties oneself of all images, forms,thoughts, and intellectualizations andthere, in this bareness, in this “cloudof unknowing,” beholds God. Theword contemplation derives fromthe Latin contemplatio, which means“to behold.” Contemplation is directencounter, immediate and unmedi-ated. Contemplative prayer, then, ischaracterized by a pre-verbal, pre-ra-tional intimacy with God.

To what extent can there be legit-imate cross-pollination betweenChristianity and non-Christian tra-ditions? How did your experienceof Buddhism form you?My training under Buddhist teachersand in that monastic environment hascontinued and will continue to inform,serve, and teach me. This should notbe of much concern; all of us have hadteachers and mentors in life who havedone us a great service by giving us,for however long, their self, their love,and their discipline. Many people en-ter the Church having been formedand disciplined in the armed forces,for example, and this discipline canserve them well in a Christian con-text. It may make them spectacularliturgists, self-disciplined pastors,loyal and obedient to superiors, ableto stand strong through challenging

times, skilled at motivating others.But the Church is not the military,nor is it Zen Buddhism. One mustsearch the tradition and the Scrip-tures, and be searched by the Spirit,in order to discern what can be car-ried over from any formational expe-rience outside the Church, even fromwithin, and what needs to be dis-carded. The past ten years have beena process of doing this: of searchingthe Christian tradition, especially itscontemplative traditions, of prayingand practicing and being a full mem-ber of the Church with its sacramen-tal life.

You have said that the contem-plative life must not be opposedto the active life, yet one fre-quently encounters at the begin-ning of Christian mystical textsan exhortation from the authorto the reader that what follows inthe book is not for everyone, butonly for those who are pretty faradvanced — usually meaning atleast those who have had a thor-ough formation in monasticism.How do you reconcile this ten-sion?One must have a thorough formationnot in monasticism but in the Chris-tian life in general before entering thecontemplative life. One must besteeped in the life of the Church —her sacraments, liturgical rites,teachings and doctrines, saints and

Behold God20 MINUTES WITH JAMES KRUEGER

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May 24, 2015 • THE LIVING CHURCH 13

Scriptures. Only then, and only in themidst of the life of the Church, canthere be a truly Christian vocation ofcontemplation.

Still, a moment of true contempla-tion can be had at any time in one’slife, perhaps even before one entersthe Church. Many people enter theChurch precisely because they havehad some sort of contemplative, rev-elatory experience. Others mightglimpse it only after a long life ofChristian practice. Contemplation isnot something that we can force andit is not a possession of either the“active” or the “contemplative” Chris-tian. It is God’s gift of himself to us, agift that he, in fact, is giving to everysingle one of us all of the time. Wemust trust in this. If we do not, wewill never be able to withstand a con-templative vocation with all of itslong desert paths.

I noticed that Maximus the Con-fessor’s “Difficulty 10” is listedas a seminal work on the MonsNubifer Sanctus website. Of courseMaximus was a great teacher ofChristian spirituality, but he alsosuffered enormously, and ulti-mately died, defending somepretty subtle points of orthodoxtheology — what many todaywould regard as irrelevant minu-tia. What’s the connection be-tween doctrine and devotion? Isbelieving correctly important forthe spiritual life?The Greek New Testament term sooften translated into English as be-lief is pisteuo. This word is not aboutholding some tyrannical ideology; itsmeaning is more along the lines of“trust,” as in the saying “I believe inyou.” When we say this to anotherperson we are saying that we know,through experience of them as a per-son, that they are worthy of our con-fidence. Having faith is right belief.We begin the Christian life with faith,even if it is only a faint glimmer.

Maximus was mutilated for mak-

ing the point that two wills — divineand human — were operative inChrist; that the human and the divinewills were distinct yet united, work-ing in a symphonia or harmony. Inthe end he was rather a lone voice onthis point. One might wonder whyMaximus gave so much to defendwhat seems on the surface a pettypoint of doctrine. I believe that Max-imus’s authority and conviction onthis point, like Athanasius’s authorityon the divinity of the Son, not only in-

formed his spiritual life but grew outof it.

What is the greatest spiritualchallenge or danger facing con-temporary Americans?Americans are facing a spiritual crisisof epic proportions, and the prob-lems that feed it are complex and dif-ficult to pinpoint. In the end, how-ever, the greatest spiritual dangersfacing contemporary Americans arethe same dangers that we have facedfrom the beginning: the desires of theflesh, the pride of life. We mustn’tmistake the seemingly different cir-cumstances around us, the materialand scientific progress we havemade, as marking a fundamentalchange in the workings of the humansoul. God is God and sin is sin, andthis is why the Christian spiritual tra-dition is perennial.

What advice would you give tothe average churchgoer whosenses that there is more to thespiritual life than showing up on

Sunday, but who might not knowwhere or how to begin?I would advise such a person to beginby attending other church-related ac-tivities that the church, or anotherChristian organization, might be of-fering, and to work on perfectingChristian virtue in daily activities, alifelong task. I would also suggesttaking time during the week to prac-tice a personal devotion, such aspraying the offices, the rosary, etc.Using traditional forms of prayer is

better than trying to wing it, whichusually means just getting lost inone’s own fantasies and predisposi-tions. If the desire to go deeperstrengthens through this then Iwould suggest exploring contempla-tive practice under a spiritual direc-tor.

Where do you go to find renewal?Not to sound trite but the first placeI go for renewal is to God in prayer.Without the view of contemplationlife would be unbearable, and themore one has this view the more onerealizes how cruel life is without it.Similarly, I like to wander in a snowyforest, or fish a mountain stream, orjust watch the water pass me by. Mywife, too, with all of her natural love,is a place of refuge and renewal. I amrefreshed by serving the Liturgy. I goto my confessor and spiritual direc-tor for renewal and challenge, and Igo on retreat at various monasteriesand hermitages. My guitar and pianoprovide some renewing moments, asdo poetry and good friends.

“We mustn’t mistake the seeminglydifferent circumstances around us, thematerial and scientific progress we havemade, as marking a fundamental changein the workings of the human soul.”

—The Rev. James Krueger

Left: A warm place for conversation at Mons Nubifer Sanctus.