Schwab Transcript

8/18/2019 Schwab Transcript

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IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF RILEY COUNTY KANSAS

IN THE INTEREST OF

Case No. 15JC29

Case No. 15JC30

Case

No.

15JC31

Case

No. 15JC32

Case No. 15JC33

TRANSCRIPT OF REVIEW HEARING

PROCEEDINGS

had before the

Honorable John F. Bosch

Judge of iv i s ion I of t h e i s t r i c t Court of Ri l ey

County

Kansas a t Manhat tan Kansas

on

the 29th day o f October

2015

100

Courthouse

Plaza

Manhat tan

Kansas

66502

_ ~

~


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APPEARANCES

The Sta t e

of

Kansas

appeared

by

Ms. Bethany C.

Fie lds Deputy Riley County Attorney, 105 Courthouse Plaza,

Manhattan,

Kansas

66502-6017.

The

mother ,

Ms. Amelia Schwab,

appeared in person

and

by

Ms. Miranda Johnson,

of the law o f f i c e of Pat r ick

Caffey,

P.A., 1014

Poyntz

Avenue, Sui te

B

Manhattan, Kansas

66502.

The f a the r Raymond Schwab, appeared in person and by

Mr.

Randy R. Debenham,

of the

Debenham Law

Off ice

3615

S.W.

29th S t r ee t Topeka, Kansas

66614-2077.

The fa the r appeared by

Ms. Brenda

M.

Jordan, Attorney a t

Law,

404 Humboldt S t re e t Sui te

G

Manhattan,

Kansas 66502-6072.

The ch i ld ren

appeared

by

t he i r

Guardian

ad

Litem, Ms

Also appearing:

he

Se

re

ar y

lS

p r e

sen

t r hroug6D

anVel

Deitr ich

Deja Jackson

and Rhonda

Eisenbarger .

CASA i s presen t through Jenn i fe r

Anguiano,

Cathie

Bear and Jamie Stevens .


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1

THE

COURT:

Miss Fie lds

you can

s t a t e

the

case and

2

note the appearances please .

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4

MS. FIELDS:

Your

Honor

we a re here

in the

i n t e r e s t

o f the S ch w ab l l l l l l l l l ch i l d r en 15JC29

through 33.

St a t e

5 appears through Deputy County At torney Bethany

Fie lds .

6

the

o th e r

ch i ld ren

a re no t

7

8

9 The mother appears in person

and

through counsel Miranda

10

Johnson.

The

fa the r

appears not

in person

but

through

counse l Brenda

Jordan.

Raymond Schwab the f a t h e r

of

the other ch i ld ren appears

in person and with counse l

Randy Debenham.

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15

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19

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The Secre t a ry

i s

presen t

through KVC Danyel

D ei t r i ch Deja

Jackson

and

Rhonda Eisenbarge r .

C S

i s presen t

through

J en n i f e r Anguiano Cathie Bear

and

Jamie Stevens .

I n t e r e s t ed p a r t i e s p resen t a re

mate rna l

aunt i s a l s o p re s en t .

She has f i l ed a motion for i n t e r e s t e d

par ty

s t a tu s but I know

a l so

Miss Jordan has comments for

the

23

Court

regard ing

her c l i e n t .

24 THE

COURT:

Very wel l .

Al l r i g h t

j u s t to review

a

25

few t h i n g s the Court had the

d i s p o s i t i o n

or held the


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d i s p o s i t i o n

in

t h i s case

on August the

5th

a t which t ime

t h i s

2

case

was s e t fo r a review

hear ing

today.

3 Motions were f i l ed , the f a t h e r s former

a t to rney

f i l e d a

4

motion

to withdraw and

so we

had a motions

hear ing

then

on

5

6

7

September

9th .

The

Court

found t h a t the maternal uncle ,

should have i n t e r e s t ed par ty

8

The Court denied

the

f a t h e r s motion

9 fo r

hi s

a t t o rn ey to

withdraw.

10

Subsequent

to

t h a t t ime

the

Court

o f

Appeals

gran ted Mr.

11

Vinduska s motion

to

withdraw

and t h i s Court then a l s o gran ted

12 hi s

motion

I t h i n k

he

f i l e d a second

motion.

13

The Court has appointed

new

counsel fo r the

fa ther .

The

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17

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20

Court found two Shawnee

County a t to rneys ,

o r county a t to rneys

t h a t

were wi l l ing to

t ake the cases

and Mr.

Debenham i s

here in

the CINC case , and

I m

looking fo r the list o f names I c a n t

r e c a l l

the a t to rney appointed

fo r

Mr. Schwab on the

appeal ,

bu t

he now

i s r ep resen ted

by

counse l .

Here

it i s .

MR DEBENHAM:

Your

Honor

it s Rachel Hockenbarger .

THE COURT:

T h a t s

c o r r e c t , Mr. Debenham thank

you

21

and

s h e s

been appointed, so

Mr. Schwab i s now

represen ted

in

22

a l l

aspec t s .

23

So we are on fo r

review today_

I have the CASA repor t .

24 have the r ep o r t from

St .

Francis , and a t t h i s t ime

we should

25 probably take up

the

motion fo r i n t e r e s t ed

s t a t u s

f i l e d

by the


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maternal aun

Now I might

j u s t

s t a t e , in my rev iew of the f i l e , I

prepared t h a t order appoin t ing counse l

fo r

the maternal uncle ,

When f i l l e d out the

form

put in there

and

mis take ,

t

should have

I th ink

t

was

pur e l y

a

because

i s t h e

aunt mar r ied to t h e b i o l o g i ca l materna l

unc le ,

AnthonYI so

a l though t looks on

t he

record t h a t

I v e a l read y

appoin ted

i n t e r e s t ed p a r t y s t a tu s , I h av en t .

So does anybody wish to

be heard

on t h i s ?

MS.

FIELDS: The

St a t e d o e s n t

o b j ec t , Your Honor.

THE

COURT: Mr. Debenham.

MR DEBENHAM:

Your

Honor Mr.

Schwab

o b j ec t s .

Grandparents

can be invo lved au to mat i ca l ly , placement t would

make sense fo r them to be i n t e r e s t e d

p a r t i e s , but

t h e r e s no

r e a l r eason fo r

to be al lowed

to

be an

i n t e r e s t ed p a r t y .

We a l read y have a l o t o f

p a r t i e s

who a re invo lved in t h i s

proceed ing a l read y . I m

not

sure t h a t we need anymore cooks

adding

to

t he

b ro th , so to

speak .

THE

COURT:

Very wel l .

Anybody

e l se wish to be

heard?

MS. FIELDS;

Your Honor

I would j u s t remind the


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-

25

ch i l d ren ,

so

s h e s been to a l l - - to most of the cour t

hear ings , I won t say

a l l ,

because I d i d n t go back and look

a

the f i l e , s h e s been ac t ive ly here a t

t h e

hear ings and does

have a ves ted i n t e r e s t in her

nieces

and

nephews.

THE COURT: Very wel l .

I might note in looking a t

the s t a t u t e , KS

38-2241,

the s t a t u t e

c l e a r l y

prov ides

under

subsec t ion E, other i n t e r e s t e d p a r t i e s ,

any per son with whom

the ch i ld

has r e s id ed a t

any

t ime who i s wi th in the four th

degree o f r e l a t i o n s h i p - - which would t ake in a maternal

aunt - -

fo u r th

degree

of

r e l a t i o n s h i p to

the

ch i ld , o r to

whom

the ch i l d has c lo se

emotional t i e s

may, upon motion,

be made an

i n t e r e s t ed p a r t y if the Court determines t h a t it i s in the b es

i n t e r e s t o f t h e

ch i ld .

We do have a

l o t

o f cooks in

the

ki tchen , so

to

speak ,

Mr

Debenham, but my rev iew of the f i l e i nd ica t e s t h a t indeed the

ch i ld ren had l ived with the maternal

aunt a t

some poin t ,

and

I m

assuming

t h e r e s a c lo se emotional r e l a t i o n s h i p , i f not , i s

anyone

want ing

to

p resen t

evidence

in t h a t

regard?

I f

not , the Court wi l l

f ind t h a t t h e

maternal

aunt ,

should be determined

to

be an

i n t e r e s t e d

p a r t y .

I f she des i re s

counse l , s h e l l have

to

- - and she c a n

a f fo rd

it

s h e l l have

to

apply

to

t h e

Court

and

fill

out

an

app l i ca t ion and

t h a t s up

to

her

to

dec ide

if she wants -

wishes

to

be r ep resen ted .

So with t h a t sa id , a re we ready

to

proceed to

the

review


7/51

1 hear ing today counsel?

2

MS JORDAN:

Your Honor I would

ask the

Court to

3 cons ider

r e l i e v i n g me

a t l e a s t fo r

now.

4

5

Mr.

IIIIIIII

if the

Court

- -

having

rev iewed the

C o u r t s

repor t , w i l l

have seen

had

some d i f f i c u l t i e s ,

not

6 only wants - - t h a t have been expressed as a r e su l t of

7

l i v ing with him

but s in ce then, h e s

had

co n t in u a t io n o f t h a t .

8

What he was

exper ienc ing when he was

l i v i n g with

him

was

9 v i o l en t behavior and compulsive l y ing and

now

s in ce being

10 removed

from

his home

h e s

persona l ly t o ld tha t

h

11

would have

someone

break in to h i s

house

to kick hi s ass , and

12

t h a t s a quote from

13

So

fo r

t hose reasons ,

does

not

wish

to be

14 cons ide red as a

re in t egra t ion

opt ion

any

l onger .

15

Should t h e re become a poin t in

t ime

when

the Sta t e i s

16 pursuing

permanent guard iansh ip o r t e rmin a t io n , i.e.

the

case

17 plan changes from t h a t r e i n t e g ra t i o n which it

i s

a t

t h i s poin t

18

in

t ime then what my proposal would be t h a t I be

con tac ted and

19 cont inued in fo r schedul ing purposes , but a t t h i s poin t in t ime

20

h e s expressed not only to the case workers but

a l so to m

t h a

21

because o f those behaviors and the lack o f

a b i l i t y to

main ta in

22 t h a t and the

problems

t h a t

he

was

exper ienc ing

with

the

23

extended

family and t r y i n g to put a handle

on

t h a t , he does no

24

wish to be

cons ide red

fo r r e i n t e g ra t i o n , so fo r

t hose reasons ,

25 I d

ask to

be

excused from

t h i s

hear ing and

fu tu re

s e t t i n g s

L _____________________________________________________________________________


8/51

1

unless

and u n t i l

e i t h e r

he recon tac t s myself or the agenc ies

2

and/or

we move to

the

next phase beyond r e i n t e g ra t i o n .

3

TH

COURT:

So

were you

aware

your c l i e n t wa sn t

4 going to be here

today,

Miss Jordan?

5 MS

J O R D f u ~

He

had

con tac ted me

on

Monday and

asked

6 me

i

he needed to

be and

t h a t s when I

asked him

about

t he

7

i n format ion

I had r ead

in t he

repor t s

about

his

s t a t ement s

to

them

and

the

quote t h a t

j u s t

read the

Court

i s

what got

9

back from

him

as to

why

he

had

t o l d them t h a t , t h a t h e d been

10

11

12

t h rea t en ed .

TH

COURT:

t h a t

the

f a t h e r

has

All

r i g h t .

s t a t e d

he

was

Well

see in

t he

repor t

quote ,

done and so

l e t

13 take a

look. I f

I b i o l o g i ca l paren t d o e s n t want to be

14

represen ted , d o es n t want

to

appear

- -

me

15 MS INGELS:

Your

Honor

j u s t

so

the Co u r t s aware

16

has i n d i ca t ed

when

I met with

him

t h a t h e s

ac tua l ly

17 t r i e d to make con tac t with his fa the r , and

h i s

f a t h e r s

not

18

r e tu rn ed

his c a l l s .

19

I d o n t

know

t h a t t h a t s here

or t h e re r e a l l y fo r t h i s

20 Court to make an ev i d en t i a ry determinat ion as to

wha t s

21 occur red .

I th ink a t

t h i s

pOint Miss Jordan could

be excused

22 from t h e o th e r cases

from

appear ing, not n eces s a r i l y r e l eased

23

as

counse l ,

but

excused from a t t en d in g u n t i l such

t ime

as

- - i

24

t he

cases move

towards

t e rmina t ion o r

permanent c us t od i a nsh i p

25 o r

something o f

t h a t n a tu re , then we could n o t i fy her t h a t she


9/51

1

needs

to come

back,

or in the meantime, what we ve done in

2

3

4

5

7

8

9

10

12

13

14

15

16

o t h e r

cases ,

i f

makes co n tac t with

Miss

Jordan and

says I v e changed my mind, then obviously she could l e t us

know

and be

back invo lved

in th ings .

MS

JORDAN:

Or even i f

he

does

t h a t with the agency

Your

Honor, I t h in k

t h ey v e

l e f t t open

ended,

t h a t i f he

changes hi s

mind, they

obviously

d i d n t shu t

the

door nor am I .

He knows he can co n tac t me and I did t e l l him, in fac t , when h

asked i f he had

to

be here , pa r t o f my response to

him

was

ask ing about the r ep o r t , the

i n format ion

t h ey v e provided, and

then a l s o ask ing him what do you want me to

cont inue

doing i f

t h a t s your

pos i t ion , and

t h a t s

when

he responded with t h i s

i n format ion

ex p la in in g why he had

sa id

h e s done, and then

reconf i rming

to

me t h a t yes, h e s done.

THE

COURT:

Al l r i g h t .

when t h i s case

was

f i l e d .

I s he st ll - - w h at s his date o f b i r t h , I d o n t

17

have t h a t

r i g h t in f ron t of me?

18 I s

he yet?

19

20

MS. JOHNSON:

THE COURT:

December

December

r i g h t .

21 Does the s t a t e have

any

o b j ec t io n t o r e l ea s i n g

22 Miss Jordan?

23

24

MS

FIELDS: No Your Honor.

THE COURT:

Very

wel l ,

Miss

Jordan, you

are

r e l eased

25 and you

might

as well

j u s t

leave

t h e cour t room, j u s t t ake

a


10/51

2

3

moment.

MS JORDAN:

Thank

you.

THE COURT:

Thank

you.

1

4

All

r i g h t ,

now

w e l l

proceed with

the

rev iew

hear ing ,

and

5

Miss Fie lds .

6

MS

FIELDS:

Your

Honor I would

ask t he

Court to

7 admit the CASA r ep o r t

dated October

13th 2015 and

the

Kaw

8 Val ley r ep o r t

da ted

October 26th

of

2015.

9

10

MS INGELS: No

o b j ec t i o n .

MR

DEBENHAM:

Your

Honor

I v e

got

the

KVC

repor t ,

11 may have been sen t the other two repor t s , but I have

not seen

12

them

so

I

d o n t

fee l

competent

to objec t

or

not objec t

on

13

t h e i r

admission.

4

15

16

repor t s ,

THE COURT:

All r i g h t , so the two

- -

other two

only other repor t we have i s a CASA repor t .

MR

D E B E N H f f i ~

Okay

I thought

I

heard

there

was

17 some other

one.

18

THE COURT: I d o n t know

what happened

Mr.

Debenham

19

sor ry

you

h av en t

had

a

chance

to look

a t

these

and you do need

20 it

21

MR

DEBENHAM: I t was

probably

sen t , because I got

22

l i k e 550

pages

of

s tu f f .

23 THE COURT:

Does anyone have

an ex t ra

copy of the

24

CAS

A r ep o r t we could

give

Mr. Debenham?

25

MS FIELDS: We do Your Honor we have one.


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THE COURT: Your objec t ion

i s

noted Mr. Debenham

but the Court

wil l

admit

the

CASA repor t ,

and the Court

wi l l

admit

the KVC

repor t dated

October the 26th

2015.

And

you

can

proceed

Miss

Fie lds .

1

MS

FIELDS: Your Honor

the

court

repor t

from KVC

ind ica tes tha t the

ICPC

was denied and so

I

asked the

agency

to send us

more

documentation

regarding

tha t , and they

sen t

a

l e t t e r which I bel i eve a l l counse l rece ived a copy of: The

l e t t e r from the

Department

of

Human Serv ices

in

Larimer County

Colorado

the

l e t t e r s dated

October

22nd 2015 and

it s

from

Ju l i e

Rudley

Socia l Case Worker 2.

I would ask

t h a t

tha t l e t t e r be admit ted and I would

mark

it as

S t a t e s

Exhib i t N o . 1 .

MS

INGELS: No

objec t ion .

MR DEBENHAM: No objec t ion .

MS

JOHNSON:

No

objec t ion .

THE

COURT:

Very well then the l e t t e r from

Larimer

county

Department

o f Human Serv ices

dated

October 22

2015

i s

admit ted .

MS

FIELDS:

Your

Honor

I would j u s t reques t

tha t

the parents comply with

the

court with the

case p lan

t a sk .

It s

my

unders tanding

the

case

plan

has

j u s t

been approved

by

DCF and sen t

to

the agency.

I

have

my s t a f f

pr in t ing o f f

a

copy

of

each case p lan fo r the mother and f a the r and plan

to

give

it

to them e i t h e r during court if it

ge ts

done in t ime or


12/51

1

1 a t the conc lus ion of the hear ing

so

t h a t

each

paren t

has

- -

2 each paren t be ing Mr.

and

Mrs. Schwab - - each have a copy of

3 each

c h i l d s

case plan

t ask so

t h a t

t h e r e s

no

confus ion

as

to

4

what

they

need

to

do

to

work

t he case p lan goa l o f

5

r e in t eg r a t i o n .

6 In

add i t ion ,

Your

Honor, I d ask the Court - - so I d the

7 Court

to adopt

the case

plan

and order

to

paren t s comply

with

8 it, and two, I would ask the Court to order t h a t the paren ts

9 comply with the cond i t ions as o u t l i n ed in t h i s l e t t e r ,

S t a t e s

10

Exhib i t

N o . 1 .

11 T h ere s s ev e ra l

t h in g s t h a t

Colorado

wants to

see happen

12 before

they a re

even w i l l i n g t o re look a t an

ICPC

placement of

13 the ch i l d ren ,

and

so I would ask the Court

to

orde r the paren t

14

to comply with t h a t .

15 I m no t

agree ing

n eces s a r i l y with t h e i r t ime frame o r

16

t h e i r

t ime

schedules

t h a t

t h ey v e

l a i d

out

in the

l e t t e r

from

7 Colorado , but as

fa r

as

the t asks

themselves such as random

20

such as marr iage counse l ing ,

mental

h ea l t h assessment ,

types

of

th ings . An i n t eg ra t ed assessment

for

both

mental h ea l t h and subs tance abuse , I would ask t h a t the paren t

21 be

orde red

to comply with

a l l t hose

t a sks .

22

I d

ask

t h a t

the

v i s i t s remain

as

the

Court

has

prev ious l

23

orde red ,

and

it s y unders t and ing , and

I know Miss

Inge l s

w i l

24 address t h i s in

more

d e t a i l , t h a t

25


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would l eave

t h a t up

to

the Cour t .

way

or the o t h e r .

I do not f ee l

s t rong ly

one

THE COURT: Very

wel l .

MS.

FIELDS:

Your

Honor,

the

other

t h in g

i s ,

I am

reques t ing the

Court

appoin t an educat iona l advocate for the

ch i ld ren ,

e s p e c i a l l y

has been

nine

weeks.

placement ,

He i s s t ru g g l i n g in school and it

I know t h a t the mate rna l aunt and

has been

very

d i l i g e n t

with

1

keeping KV appr i sed o f how h e s

doing

educa t iona l ly , but h e s

s t ru g g l i n g ,

and

so

I

would

ask

for

an

educat iona l

advocate

be

appointed fo r

him

and to

Sh e s c u r r e n t l y not having speech a t school but

ra the r

having

to

go

to

an independent

p ro v id e r .

I

t h in k i f

t h e re was

an ed u ca t io n a l advocate appointed,

they

could b e t t e r

naviga te

the school piece such t h a t - - so

t h a t

can have

t h e i r

educa t ion

needs

met

in

a

more

t imely

mat te r .

We re

nine weeks

i n t o

t h i s school semester

and

other than

j u s t what the classroom t each e r and

have

worked

out toge ther rega rd ing

homework

and

makeup classroom

work, t h e r e s not a l o t subs tan t ive being done, and

a

grader

and t h i s i s a

c r i t i c a l

a l l s c h o o l s c r i t ic a l ,

but

in

my own

exper ience ,

t h i s

appears

to

be

a

very

c r i t i c a l

year and

h e s

not grasp ing the mat e r i a l because he d o es n t hav

t h e

foundat ion from the pas t school

years

and h e s

very

much

s t ru g g l i n g and I th ink it s

a f fec t ing

him.

I t h in k


14/51

1

1 would ag ree t h a t it s

a f f e c t i n g

him emot iona l ly

2

and making

it hard

on everybody

because h e s

s t r u g g l i n g

and

he

3 knows he i s .

4

So

I

would

ask

fo r

an

e duc a t i ona l

advoca te

f o r

a l l

5 c h i l d r e n

to

make sure t h e i r

e duc a t i on

needs

a re

met because

6 t h e i r p aren t s a re

f a r

away

but

if

noth ing e l s e

a t l e a s t fo r

7 those two.

TH

COURT:

Those two

r e f e r r i n g

to

MS.

FIELDS: Yes.

TH

COURT:

What

about

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

MS.

FIELDS:

It

was

my

impress ion or under s tand ing

t h a t

he i s r e c e i v i ng

suppor t and

s e r v i c e s .

He cou ld

use

an

15 educa t ion advoca te , too .

?

16

I

was

t h i nk i ng

t h a t

the school

was

going

to

be

doing

some

17 s t u f f because o f h i s psycholog ica l ev a lu a t io n t h a t they had

18 but

maybe t he y still co u l d n t

do it.

T h a t s

why in

r e a l i t y I m

19

ask ing

f o r

an

educa t ion advoca te fo r

all

of the ch i ld ren .

20

y o u r e going to appoin t one

f o r

one it seems to me it make

21

sense to appoin t

one f o r

all o f them.

I f

it t u rn s out t h a t

I f

22

t he y

d o n t

need

to

do

anyth ing f o r

okay

t hen

they

d o n

23

24

25

have

to

do

anyth ing

f o r him.

THE COURT:

Let me ask,

has

t h e re been i n d iv id u a l

educa t ion p lans made fo r each

o f

t he ch i ld ren ?


15/51

1

MS. FIELDS:

That

c a n t happen un l e s s

the

pa r e n t s

2 reques t

it or t he e du c a t ion advoca te r eq u es t s it.

3

4

5

TH COURT:

Or the

Cour t

o rd e r s it; co r rec t ?

MS. FIELDS:

That - -

I

d o n t

know

t h a t t h a t s t r u e .

MS. JOHNSON:

In

my

e xpe r i e nc e with o th e r school s ,

6

Your

Honor t he

Court

c a n t or de r

it, it has to

be t he p aren t s

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

The

p aren t

because

I v e t r ie d

as

a

gua r d i a n ad l i t em becaus

it says in

my or de r s

t h a t

I

can

p a r t i c i p a t e

wi th schools and

a l l of

t h a t ,

and

I

t r i e d myse l f to w ri t e l e t t e r s to

t he

school

to ge t

the s p ec i a l t e s t i n g and

I

c a n t do it so the

c ou r t c a n

do it. The s p ec i a l educa t ion laws

r e q u i r e

t he p aren t s

to

s i gn

o f f

on

it.

TH COURT: I f ind

t h a t hard

to b e l i ev e but - -

MS. FIELDS:

It s because it s

f ed e ra l

law

and

not

15

s t a t e ,

othe rwise , I

t h in k the

Cour t

could ,

if

it

was a s t a t e

16 law

but because it s f ed e ra l

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

TH COURT:

W e l l

move on t hen ,

a ny th ing

e l s e?

MS.

FIELDS: No.

THE COURT:

Very wel l .

Miss

In g e l s ,

you a re

the

GAL I b e l i e v e ,

which i s unusual

MS. INGELS:

Your Honor

I would

agree

wi th t he

S t a t e s

r eq u es t .

I

do

t h i nk a t t h i s

p o in t r e i n t e g r a t i o n i s

still

v iab le

with

a

p aren t ,

and I would

a s k

t he Court

I

24 guess a t t h i s p o in t my concern i s

t he

p a r e n t s e i t h e r , and

I

25

speak s p e c i f i c a l l y

of the mother

and

Raymond because

Mr.


16/51

1

_._ _ _---------

2

3

4

5

6 going to

be asking

the

Court

to make

7 a

f ind ing

t ha t

r e in teg ra t ion i s

not viab le because

these

8

ch i ld ren

d o n t

need to languish

in

the system while

the

parent

9

decide whether

or not t h e y r e going to work within the system.

10

11

12

13

So a t t h i s poin t I th ink we

need

to give them more t ime

4

and allow them to work the re in teg ra t ion

process .

However,

I

15 j u s t

want

them to

know

t h a t

if w come back

and

we

still

have

16 them f igh t ing

of ac (ual1y doing

these th ings , my pos i t ion

\-,;ill

17 not be t he same a t t ha t

point

in t ime.

18 S p ec i f i c a l l y as

to the

educa t iona l advocate ,

I

agree with

19 the Sta te ,

I

t h ink

one

needs to

be

appointed for a l l

the

20

ch i ld ren .

I know t h e r e s

an

i ssue

with the IEP. However,

I

21 agree wi th the

Court

in the sense t h a t

the chi ldren a re in

22 S ~ a t e s

custody, i . e . , the

l ega l

guardian

and

paren t i s

the

23 Sta te

in

my opinion , not

the

b io lo g i ca l

pa ren t s ,

so

I th ink

th

24 Court can order the rEP.

However,

the school may not

honor

25 t ha t .

I

d o n t

know

what it hur t s a t t h i s poin t

to

have

the


17/51

1

Court

order

t h a t .

I f the school honors it,

grea t ,

i f they

2 d o n t , then w e l l dea l with t h a t , but I t h i n k

we

do need

to

go

3

ahead and

put t h a t

i n t h e re .

But

I

th ink we do

need to go

4 ahead and put t h a t in t h e re .

5

6

I

a l so th ink we need

the ed u ca t io n a l

advoca te ,

s p e c i f i c a l l y aga in , s s t ru g g l i n g . I

th ink

i s

7 s t ru g g l i n g , but we got his grades j u s t before cour t and

he

8 seems to be doing p r e t t y well and

i s

p a r t i c ip a t i n g and i s very

9 well l iked in

school .

10

11

Fi n a l l y

as

to

I would address the

Court

t ha t

I

hav

met with

a

couple of weeks

ago

and

he

i s out

in the h a l l

12 today, and i f the

Court

would l i k e to i n q u i r e

as

to him

e i t h e

13

14

15

16

in the courtroom or in chambers I would leave t h a t up to you

but he

does

not want

to have any con tac t

with

his

mother or

Raymond.

e

does

not

want

to be invo lved in the phone c a l l s ,

he does not want to be involved in

t h e

v i s i t s .

I know t h e r e s

17

a v i s i t

se t

up

fo r

today

a f t e r

Court

and he

does not want to

b

18

involved in

t ha t .

19

That be ing sa id , as the guard ian ad

l i t em,

I

d o n t

20 n eces s a r i l y agree t ha t he

should

have t h a t

d ec i s io n

making

21

au thor i ty a t his

age.

I th ink u n t i l

the

case

plan goal

i s

22

changed

as long as it s r e in t eg r a t i o n , I th ink he

should

stil

23 a t l e a s t

p a r t i c i p a t e

with his mother

a t

t h i s p o in t

24

25


18/51

1

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

THE COURT:

Miss Johnson.

MS JOHNSON:

Your

Honor

s in ce t he

mother

w i l l be

11 provided t he case p lan

12 Miss Fie ld s , do you have t hose cop ies?

13

MS

FIELDS; Yes

I do.

1

14

MS JOHNSON: May I ,

before

I agree or

d i sagree

with

15 them?

16

MS

FIELDS: Jus t

fo r the record , the

mother

and

17 f a t h e r a re r ece iv in g a copy o f

each

o f t h e ch i ld r en s

case

plan

18 t a s k s .

19 It s

very

d u p l i c i t o u s

but - -

20

21

22

23

24

word

THE

COURT:

I m sor ry ,

t h e y r e

very

what?

MS FIELDS:

I

d o n t know

t h a t

I m

using

t he

r i g h t

t h e r e s l o t s

o f d u p l i ca t i o n s .

THE COURT;

All

r i g h t .

MS FIELDS: And so

each

paren t

has ,

though a copy

25

of

each

c h i l d s

case plan .


19/51

1

1 THE COURT: Now would

t h i s

be t he same case p lan

2

t asks

t h a t were inc luded

in the repor t from

KVC?

3 MS.

FIELDS: Yes, it

j u s t

took

a

long t ime for

DCF

to

4

5

a c t u a l l y

approve it.

THE COURT:

So

I

want

to

make

sure I

under s tand t h i s

6

then.

7 The case p lan t a sk s

are what

co n s t i t u t e the permanency

8

plan ; i s t h a t

co r rec t ?

9

10

11

12

MS.

FIELDS: Correc t .

THE COURT:

So

t h i s

has not yet been d i s t r i b u t e d .

This

i s the f i r s t t h a t t h e p a ren t s have r ece iv ed

it.

MS.

FIELDS: It s

the

f i r s t t h a t t h ey v e

rece ived

th

13 approved copy from

DCF. However,

t h ey v e been made aware of

14

what t he

t asks

a re , they

j u s t

d i d n t have t h e ac t u a l case p l a n

15 document.

16

17

18

THE COURT:

Very

wel l .

All

r i g h t , Miss Johnson.

MS JOHNSON: Your Honor, it s my

under s tand ing t h a t

19 there was

a

case p lan confe rence

when

t h ese t asks were

20 addressed but

I m

looking a t

it,

t h e r e s

5

t asks fo r

t he

21

22

23

24

25

mother,

t h a t s

j u s t on t he one t h a t

I m looking

a t .

I

d o n t

know

how

much of

t h a t

she

...

I

know

she

disagreed

with

some of

it,

and t h a t s what I m t r y i n g to read

th rough

r i g h t now, and

t h a t s why t h e y r e wai t ing

on t he

f i n a l approved copy

from DCF

So

I guess we

would l i k e to

p o in t out

t h a t it s

not

t h a t


20/51

they

h av en t

been

in compl iance with t h e case plan,

but up

to

2 t h i s

p o in t ,

they

d i d n t

have a copy

of

it t hey

d i d n t know

2

3 what a l l t he t a sk s

were

and now t he y

do

and

up

- - I t h ink th

4

o th e r b ig g es t

concern

fo r

t he

mother

with

t h ese

case p lan

t a sk

5

i s

t he co s t

as s o c i a t ed with

it.

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 fo l low t h e

recommendations

a t a

minimum or

cont inue

- - or

14 orde r the

t asks as o u t l i n ed

fo r Colorado .

15

It

a l s o s t a t e s

in here

t h a t

she s h a l l p a r t i c i p a t e

in

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

f ami ly

t he rapy

with I

know

in

my

c onve r sa t i on

wi th

her

t h a t i s

a concern as to how

she

can do

t h a t

from

the

s t a t e of

Colorado

so

I

would ask

t h a t KV be orde red

to

he lp

f ind

a

family

t h e r ap i s t t h a t

w i l l

do

fami ly

t he rapy over

the

phone

between the mother and

and

t h a t may a l s o he lp f a c i l i t a t

some o f

the phone c a l l i s s u es and the

v i s i t a t i o n i s su es , if

t h e r e s

a

family

t h e r ap i s t

invo lved wi th

t h a t ,

but

a t t h i s

p o in t , t h e mother does not

have

t he funds to

d r i v e

to Kansas

bi -weekly to p a r t i c ip a t e in f ami ly

t he rapy

with

I d o n

25 know if t h a t s a

t a s k

of a l l

the ch i l d ren ,

I j u s t

happen to


21/51

1

2

3

4

5

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

2

have

case

p lan t h a t

I m looking a t .

I

would ask th tlllllllle

ordered

to

p a r t i c ip a t e

ln

phone

c a l l s and v i s i t s with his mother

a t t h i s

poin t in

t ime

as the

goa l

i s

r e i n t e g ra t i o n

in

t h i s case . Again, I d ask

t ha t

t h e re

be

t h a t family therapy

se t

up so hopefu l ly t h a t can be

f a c i l i t a t e d by

phone

so t h a t she

can

p a r t i c i p a t e in t h a t with

him, and

I would ask

the

Court

to cons ider

the

f inanc ia l

burde

t h a t some of t h i s i s on the fami ly .

As fo r the educa t iona l advocates , the

mother

i s not in

agreement with having an educat iona l advoca te appointed.

She

still has

r i g h t s as

a

paren t to

look

out fo r her

c h i l d s

educat iona l

needs

and would

l i k e

to be

the

decis ionmaker on

t h a t , and I

th ink in

p as t cases we ve

had i s s u es

a t t empt ing

to

appoint ed u ca t io n a l

advoca tes when the paren t s were still in

the p ic tu r e and to

be

consu l ted .

I

th ink ,

in

fac t ,

we were

t o ld t h a t

t hey

would not appoint educa t iona l advocate a t t h a t

poin t , and

it

wasn t by the Cour t ,

it

was

by the name?

MS FIELDS: DCF

MS JOHNSON:

Was it

DCF?

And so a t t h i s poin t I

th ink

t h a t

the

paren t s

need to

be

kept

appr ized of placement and KVC as

to

what those concerns

a re .

I f the school

has

some concerns , t hey need to provide

t h a t

i n format ion

to them.

I was confused in reading the CASA r ep o r t

because

it s a i d

25

I

t h a t

d i d n t need

spec ia l

educa t ion

se rv ice s ,

d i d n t need


22/51

2

1

an IEP

but ye t

he was i n s p e c i a l ed

and

my

under s tand ing t h a

2

in

or de r

to be in s p ec i a l ed you had to have

an

IEP

so I

was

3

wonder ing if maybe he was in , l i ke , T i t l e

1

r ead ing c l a s s e s

4

which d o e s n t

r eq u i re an

IEP. I

d o n t know e x a c t l y

what

t h a t

5

was

i n rega rds to .

6

So

t hos e a re Our

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

MS. INGELS:

Your Honor

I d l i k e

to respond to t h a t

y i s su e

t h a t

I

have

with t he

pa r e n t s o b jec t in g ,

we

h a v e n t heard from

t he

f a t h e r , but as to t he

educa t iona l

advoca te ,

we have

the argument t h a t

t he f i n an c i a l i s su e

of

g back to Kansas to

do

t h ese t h i n g s , y

e t t

he

y

h o s

F LSE

to ~ r o

a f t e r i ~

caS

e s t a r t e d and if we

have

the

argument as to how

to

do

t he

t a s k s t h a t t h e y r e

asked to

complete ,

how a re t hey

going

t o ge t back

here

to do t h i ngs

wit

t he

school?

So you d o n t

ge t

to make t h a t argument in

my

opin ion and

say d o n t

hold

it a g a i n s t us

t h a t

we

v o l u n t a r i l y chose to move

to Colorado when we

c a n t

do

a l l

t he se t h in g s

t h a t f a r away

bu

ye t

we

d o n t want you to a ppo in t an

e duc a t i ona l

advocate to

look out f o r t he c h i l d r e n s

b es t

i n t e r e s t in educa t ion because

we want

to be ones invo lved , even though

we

c a n t be t h e re a l l

t he t ime because we r e

in Colorado

and c a n t

a f f o r d

to come

back .

MS. JOHNSON: Your

Honor

THE COURT:

One second .


23/51

2

I want

to

hear from

the

f a t h e r f i r s t

and

then l e t you

2 respond , Miss Johnson.

3

MR DEBENHAM: Thank you,

Your

Honor.

4 We ve got

severa l

i s sues , did you want me j u s t to address

5 r i g h t now

the

educat iona l advocate , or can I go through a l l o f

6

the

i s s u es t h a t have been

brought

up?

7

THE

COURT: You can go

th rough a l l the i s sues , Mr.

8 Debenham.

9

MR DEBENHAM:

The educat iona l advocate ,

fa ther

has

10 a l read y

contac ted a t

l e a s t

one

of the schoo l s ,

offe red to

s ign

11

whatever he needs

to

to ge t an IEP done. He wants 0

be

12 in

volved

th e edu c t on of i s klds

,

so

fr om h i s e r s p e c i v ~

13

he oesn

t

r

eaLly

see he

eed

or an d u c t ~ o o c

14 becaus he w

an

t s - -

he

wants 0 g e t

~ n v o l v e d and to

sign

15

whatever he needs

to

s ign

and

has t o ld

a t

l e a s t

one

of the

16

school s

t h a t he

wants

to do t ha t , so

again , we

d o n t see

the

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

educat iona l advocate as

r e a l l y necessa ry

fo r t h a t reason. In

fac t ,

yeah,

there

was even a

conference c a l l l a s t

week with

a l

t h e t each e r s a t

one

of the school s , so the process i s a l ready

s t a r t i n g .


24/51

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

2

e f fo r t s ,

to r e in t eg r a t e

the

ch i l d ren

with the

paren t s ,

and

d e f i n i t e l y between and the p a ren t s ,

t h e r e s

going to

hav

to be some

s o r t

o f family counse l ing .

Now m y

a

i t

d if f i cu l t because dad was moved

to

enve r 0 wo k a t t he VA the e ra t her

tha

Topeka not a .

h

J s buL

he

choice

a f the oompc ny so we ve

got a

big

dis tance between the two

but

t h e re may

be

something t h a t can

b

worked out , and from my experience, anytime

t h a t

t h e r e s a

t h e r ap i s t

t r y i n g

to

work when you ve got a

kid

who d o es n t

wan

to t a l k with one

or

both

of

the

p a ren t s , t hey

always s t a r t wit

phone c a l l s anyway,

and

then

go to Skype and

then

t r y to do

some i n t e r ac t i o n s between them.

The personal i n t e r ac t i o n s probably won t be happening fo r

a

littl b i t

i n to

the fu tu re

so

a t t h i s poin t

I th ink

we

should

- -

the Court should

orde r t h a t

t h e re be some so r t

of

family counse l ing

to

t r y to

get the

heal ing p rocess done with

t h i s fami ly .

The

cos t s , my

c l i e n t has no problem with

any

o f the case

plan

t a sks .

He has

no

problem with

anyth ing

t h a t

the

depar tment o f human resources

from Lar imer

County

i s

recommending.

e

i s going

to do those r eg a rd l e s s o f whether

you order

them or

not ,

s imply because he

wants the

ICPC to be

success fu l and he wants to ge t the

kids

out t he re , or a t l e a s t

hopefu l ly a t l e a s t

four , but

he would

l i k e

to

have a l l

f ive o f

them

out

t h e re

He i s looking

forward

t o g e t t i n g the ICPC


25/51

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process done as

quick ly

as poss ib le and g e t t i n g his par t of

t h i s done

so

he

can ge t

the kids

back as quick ly as

poss ib le .

2

But we ve got the co s t s , and s in ce th e

Sta t e

i s t a sked

with

t r y i n g

to

r e in t eg r a t e t he

p a ren t s ,

I

t h i n k

where

there

a r

onerous co s t s involved,

I

th ink the Sta t e needs to be

a t l e a s t

a s s i s t i n g

but

hopefu l ly

paying

fo r those

courses . The courses

can

be t aken

in

Colorado

but

t ha t

d o e s n t mean t h a t Kansas

c a n t be send ing money to

t hose

companies in Colorado, o r a t

l e a s t I v e never

heard

t ha t the St a t e o f Kansas c a n t pay fo r

s e rv i ces i n

anothe r

s t a t e .

In

fac t ,

my

c l i e n t

t e l l s me the

Sta t e

has a l ready pa id fo r drug

and

a lcohol eva lua t ion out

in

Colorado which my c l i e n t

has

a l ready

done

I th ink

t h a t addresses most every th ing .

THE COURT: When

was

the drug

and

a lcohol eva lua t ion

done?

My rev iew of the notes

i nd ica t e

it h a s n t been done.

MR

DEBENHAM:

h a s n t happened.

I

th ink it s been scheduled and it

Can I have my c l i e n t

s t and up

and tell the Court exac t ly

what

the

s i t u a t i o n

i s ?

THE COURT:

He

sure

can.

Go ahead , s i r .

MR SCHWAB:

Thank you,

Your Honor.


26/51

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2

KVC

as

well as

the Department

o f Human Serv ices

in

Colorado , have worked out

how

t h i s

i s going

to work and

they v

a l read y we were

wai t ing

on a r e f e r r a l and a

promise

o f

payment

o r something l i k e t h a t which KVC

has

provided, and

so

we

have

scheduled

it but

no, it

has not yet been completed,

but we have

it

place .

Colorado

i s

he lp ing us with t h e i r

resources .

They c a n t

help

f i n an c i a l l y

but

t h e y r e

plugging

us

i n to

p laces

where

the

would have us do

it

if the case was

t he re ,

and

so

KVC

so fa r

has s a i d t h a t t h ey r e w i l l i n g to f i n an c i a l l y a s s i s t in some of

t h a t p ro ces s .

I d o n t know

about the

whole case plan, but we

are

moving

forward

with

tha t r igh t

now;

THE

COURT: Very

wel l ,

thank you.

Mr. Debenham.

MR. DEBENHAM:

And

before

I

sit down,

I

want

to say

tha t I would

l i k e

to c a l l so - - I d

l i k e

to

get

some t e s t imony from her on

the case

plan t a s k s and where we ar

and

a l so

on the ICPC

about t h e i r i n t e r ac t i o n s back

and fo r th

with

Colorado and what may be happening down the

road

here,

bu

we

can do

t ha t

a f t e r we ve

t a lked

about the o t h e r

i ssues .

THE COURT: Very wel l then.

Miss Johnson, you had something e l s e you were wanting to

respond

t o?

MS. JOHNSON:

I th ink

a l l

I

was

going

to say, Your


27/51

2

1

Honor, i s t h a t the mother , wi th Mr. Schwab, if

t h e y r e

sen t th

2 paperwork fo r t he I E P s , t he y would

rev iew

t h a t and r e tu rn it.

3 At t h i s

po i n t

in t ime, r dOll L th

i n k

anyt h

ng

s bee n

p r o

vided

4

t o

t hem , -

no th e S

tj

11 r e

pare

n ts ,

t h e y s t

il

l have

a r n a

5

r

ign t s t o mq

ke

edUcatlona i decisio ns [or

Lhelr chl ldre

n, and

w e d l i k e t he Cour t to t ake t h a t i n t o co n s id e ra t io n and give

7

them

an

oppor t un i t y .

I v e not seen anyth ing and maybe - -

t h e r

8

may be t e s t imony one way or t he o th e r ,

but

t h a t d o e s n t mean

9

it s been

provided

to them and t h a t t he y h a v e n t complied to

10

t h i s

p o i n t , because

I know Mr.

Schwab

did p a r t i c i p a t e

in

11

c on f e r e nc e s wi th the school s , and if an

e duc a t i ona l

advocate i

12 a ppo in t e d , t hey can be

c u t

out

o f

t he loop

and not - -

and

t he y

13

won t m a in t a in communicat ion .

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THE COURT:

In Colorado or in Kansas?


28/51

2

MR

DEBENHAM: Both in Colorado .

2 THE COURT:

Very

wel l , t h a n k you.

3 Al l

r i g h t ,

a t

t h i s

t ime, un le s s someone e l s e has any th ing

4 e l s e we need to address , i we need

some t e s t imony,

i you wis

5 to c a l l

someone,

you may.

6 MR DEBENHAM:

7

8

THE COURT:

Very we l l .

9 c a l l e d as a wi tne s s

on be ha l f

o f

the

f a t h e r ,

Raymond Schwab,

10 be ing

o f l eg a l age

and a f t e r having

been

irst

du ly

sworn,

11

t e s t i f i e d as fo l lows :

12 DIRECT EXAMINATION

13

Y MR DEBENHAM:

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15

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21

22

23

24

25

Q.

A.

Q.

A

Q.

A

Q.

A.

Q.

Can you

i d e n t i f y

y o u r s e l f

fo r t he r e c o r d ?

And do you work f o r

KVC

-

Yes.

Behav io ra l h e a l t h c a r e , I n c . ?

And you

a r e

t he c a s e

manager

on

t h i s c a s e ?

Yes.

You ve been working with

bo th

o f t he

p a r e n t s on t he

c a s e

p la n

and b a s i c a l l y th r ough t h i s whole c a s e ?

Yes.

And

you have - - we j u s t - - you ve been work ing with them

on t he case p la n

and

you ve j u s t r e c e n t l y , j u s t very


29/51

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4

Q.

5

6 A.

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Q.

8

9

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A.

11

Q.

12 A.

13

Q.

14 A.

15

Q.

16 A.

17

Q.

18 A.

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Q.

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21

22

A.

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2

shor t ly ,

have

given them the

newest

vers ion o f the

case

plans?

Correc t ,

the approved

cop ies .

And

you 've

t a l k ed

with

them prev ious ly

about

some

of thes

t a sks

fo r

them to

complete?

Yes.

And the l e t t e r from the Department

of

Human

Serv ices

from

Lar imer County, Colorado,

you

were

the one

tha t

sen t

t h a t

to

me;

co r rec t ?

Co rrec t .

You have a copy

o f

t ha t ?

Not

a phys ica l - - hard

copy.

Okay, but you ' re the

one

t h a t

Yes, I forwarded t ha t .

To

me?

Yes.

And you ' re f ami l i a r with

the

people

from

tha t o f f i ce?

Jus t

t h a t ' s

who I ' v e

spoken with.

Okay. And

between

you and she , you ve

been ab le

to

s t a r t

some

of the i s sues t ha t are on - -

some of the

t asks

t h a t

are on t h i s l e t t e r ?

Yes ,

s h e '

$

been

ah

l

e t.O

p :""

ovide

sE:rvices

l l t

t

here i n t ha

eL e

n. t hai th

e p d. r en S C


30/51

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2

3

Q.

4

5

A

6

7

8

9 Q.

10

11

12

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14

A

15

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20

21

Q.

22

23

24

A.

25 Q.

3

with he lp ing the paren ts f ind

t hose

s e rv i ces and g e t t i n g

t hose

se t

up

so

we could c oo r d i na t e

with

her .

And a re you aware o f whether t he f a t h e r has or has not

coopera ted to t h i s poin t?

Up

u n t i l

l a s t week t h e re

was

a l o t

of h es i t an cy ,

but

whe

r spoke

l a s t

Wednesday

he

was very

coopera t ive

and

b a s i c a l l y j u s t s a i d h e s

ready

to

ge t the

b a l l r o l l i n g an

do what he needs

to do.

Okay.

Now

a l l

of t he se t a s k s ,

can

they be done in

Colorado

th rough t he Department

o f

Human Serv ices - -

excuse me l e t me

ask

a b e t t e r q u es t io n .

Have

you t a lk ed

with them

about how

to

meet

these

rcpc

r equ i r ements?

Yes.

Bas i ca l l y ,

j u s t co o rd in a t in g with them as f a r as

them

giv ing us the names of the

s e rv i ces t h a t

t he

p aren t s

can use , and then

having t he

p aren t s

s ign the

necessa ry

r e l e a s e s t h a t they

need

to so KVC can be in

communicat ion

with

t hose agenc ies

to

p o t e n t i a l l y he lp ou t

f i n a n c i a l l y

a

wel l

as

ge t the p rog ress ion of

how

t h e y r e dOing

in

those

s e rv i ces .

THE ICPC KVC REQUIRING RAYMOND TO TEST NEGATIVE FOR CANNA

DESPITE COLORADO BEING A MEDICAL CANNABIS STATE.

So

would

t be f a i r to

say

t h a t they re r eq u i r in g t h a t

t h ese t h in g s be done

be f o r e

t he y

approve an

rcpc

but

e f f ec t i v e ly , they a re working on t h ese in

Colorado?

Co rrec t , they

j u s t want - -

Go on.


31/51

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A

Q.

A

Q.

A.

Q.

A

Q.

A.

They j u s t want to make su r e

t h a t

t he p aren t s ,

you

know

a r e

complying wi th agency

r e que s t s and

a re g e t t i n g

t he

ne c e s s a r y

s e r v i c e s , and a re

be ing co n s i s t en t

in

m a in t a in ing t hos e

before we can r esubmi t

fo r approva l .

And a r e t he y going to do you know if t h e y r e going to

l e t

you

know when t hese

have

been

done?

3

I t h i n k

t h a t

w i l l a l l be in c oo r d i na t i on

as

f a r as ,

you

know

when t he

p aren t s

do

ge t t hos e

and

we ge t complet ion

o f

t hos e

s e r v i c e s

t h a t t h e y r e

do ing ,

then

we would j u s t

be

working with

t he

ICPC peop le

in

Colorado j u s t to l e t

them know

t h a t

t he se t a s k s have been comple ted .

And t hen y o u l l r esubmi t an ICPC?

Co rrec t .

And

then

assuming

t h a t t h e y v e done all t he t h i ngs

t h a t

Colorado has asked them to do

then

we can

s t a r t

r e i n t e g r a t i n g t he k ids wi th t h e i r p a r e n t s

in

Colorado bu

still keeping t he

case open?

f r om

my

unde r s a n

d

ng i s

tha

th a t we r e

0

happen , t ha

th o

cas

e w

Ou ld

s t i 1

be ope

n he r e ,

an

d th a t s

ju s

t ,

I

wO l l

Okay.

But

in

f ac t ,

i n the meant ime once t he ICPC i s

comple ted ,

t he ch i ld ren can then

move t o ,

not

Golden

...

Colorado , to be with t he

p aren t s?

Cor r e c t .

~ ~


32/51

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23

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Q

A.

Q

A.

Q

A.

Q.

A.

And then

a f t e r t h i s i s done

then

we still have the case

p lan t asks

ahead of us;

co r rec t ?

Co rrec t .

3

And a r e n t

some

of t he case p lan t a s k s d u p l i ca t i v e of wha

Colorado wants to have done?

Yes.

And do you see t h a t t h e r e s going to

be - - once

t hese a re

done

do you

see t h a t t h e r e s going to be very

much

a t

a l

in

the

case plan t a sk s l e f t to do?

No.

I want to

say

it s

j u s t

being

ab le

to mainta in

housing being

ab le

to document v e r i f i a b l e income ... I m

t r y i n g t o remember o f f

t he top

o f my head what a l l i s

on

t h e re bes ides

wha t s

in f ro n t o f me.

Bas i ca l l y once the ICPC

i s

done and approved t h ey v e

mad

t h e b ig g es t

pa r t s

of what t hey need

to

do

to

ge t the

case

plan done?

Correc t ,

and

a f t e r t ha t ,

t hen Colorado

would

j u s t

oversee

to make

sure

t h e y r e still u t i l i z i n g t hose se rv i ces and

make

sure it s going

to be a

success ,

so

t he

kids

can go

t h e re .

MR

DEBENHAM:

No fu r the r

q u es t io n s , Your Honor.

THE COURT: Thank

you.

Anyone e l s e have any ques t ions fo r Miss Jackson;

Miss Fie lds?

CROSS EXAMINATION


33/51

3

--------------

1

BY

MS. FIELDS:

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Q.

A

Q

A

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q

A

Was

t h e r e

a

meet ing

with the

schoo l rega rd ing

?

Yes, l a s t Wednesday.

Okay. Who p a r t i c i p a t ed ?

I t was myse l f ;

my

teammate ,

was

p a r t i c i p a t i n g t h e r e fo r a littl b i t

a t

t he beginning o f

the

c a l l ;

and

Raymond Schwab was t h e re

by

phone.

How b o ~ t Amelia?

No,

Amelia did

not p a r t i c i p a t e .

Do you have a r eason why?

The

r eason

t h a t

I was given

was

t h e r e

was

some i s su es

going on as f a r as she was j u s t ups e t in rega rds

to

not

be ing

a b l e

to ge t a

phone

c a l l with

on her

b i r th d ay , so she

was

j u s t

upse t

wi th t h a t , so Raymond wen

ahead and

p a r t i c i p a t e d .

We d r a t h e r

had

Amelia p a r t i c i p a t e so she

can hear

what t he schoo l was

say ing as

wel l , bu t

because

t h e r e s

a l s o one

phone, Raymond went ahead and

j u s t p a r t i c i p a t e d

in

t h a t .

What was t he outcome

o f t he meet ing?

They s t a t e d t h a t they would be moving forward

wi th

sp ec i a

educa t ion s e r v i c e s fo r

because h e s

a l r e a dy

r ece iv in g ad d i t i o n a l

s e r v i c e s

as f a r as pa ra

work i n the

c l a s s , but a l s o be ing ab le

to

u t i l i z e

ad d i t i o n a l s p ec i a l


34/51

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educa t ion

s e rv i ces , whatever the school

has

se t up and

Raymond was very coopera t ive in whatever he needed to do

and s ign and

he

provided h i s

e -mai l

and phone

number

to

th e school so they

can

co n tac t

him.

3

Q. Will

you

be able

to

t r ack and moni tor t h a t the appropr ia t

paperwork i s signed so t h a t

serv ices?

A Yes.

can

r ece iv e

t hose

Q And

does one

paren t have to

s ign , or

both?

A To my unders t and ing , t h e re only

needs

to be one paren t

t h a t needs

to

s ign .

Q What

has been

done to se t up meet ings with the school

regard ing

A. I v e sen t out mul t ip le e-mai l s to

both p aren t s

ac tua l ly

t r y i n g t o

s e t

up a confe rence l i n e with his school a f t e r

got

i n t o con tac t

with the p r i n c i p a l

the re ,

and she gave m

t h e i r plan per iod t imes but

h a v e n t

heard

back

yet

as

fa r

as

when we

can

se t up

a

conference c a l l from the

paren t s .

Q.

And would

t be important

give

age and the

fac t

t h a t we r e nine weeks i n t o t h e school t h a t t h a t get

done

sooner

ra the r

than l a t e r ?

A. Yes.

Q. Would t

be

help fu l to

have an

educat ion advocate here

l o ca l l y who can f a c i l i t a t e making sure

t h a t

the ch i ld ren


35/51

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25

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q

A.

a re r ece iv in g

s e rv i ces

in t he school , a l l t he necessa ry

s e rv i ces

in

the school t h a t t he y need?

I do

but a l s o

with t h a t I t h in k

it

would be very

impor tan t to cont inue to have

t he p aren t s

a c t i v e l y

3

invo lved .

I t

j u s t may

be e a s i e r with

somebody being

here

in Kansas j u s t to ge t the necessa ry s e rv i ces but I do

t h in k

t h a t t h e p a ren t s

still

need

to

be i nc luded in ll

o

those d ec i s io n s .

I do b e l i ev e fo r

r e i n t e g ra t i o n

in t h i s case , it would be

impor tan t

fo r

the

p a ren t s t o

s t ay

invo lved .

Has t h e re been any d i scu s s io n with

t he

school

rega rd ing

r e c e i v i ng speech

th rough the school , no

through an

independent

prov ide r?

No not yet .

I

was a c t u a l l y going to be co n tac t in g

to see if t he y

have

any ad d i t i o n a l s e rv i ces because I kno

too

o l d f o r

as she j u s t t u rned

t r y i n g t o g e t t hose ad d i t i o n a l s e rv i ces fo r

But what about

j u s t

th rough t h e school , with t he speech

p a t h o l o g i s t i n t h e school?

No.

No what?

No

she

c a n t access it o r no you

d o n t

know if

t h e r e s been

any

progress in

g e t t i n g

t h e

school

to

o f f e r

tha t ?

I m no t fo r sure if

t h e r e s been

any

pr og r e s s

a s f a r as


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Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

3

- - - - - - - - - - - - - ~ - - -

t h e

school be ing ab le to

o f f e r

t h a t .

Okay but tha tTs something

you

can fo l low-up with?

Yes.

Because t hen

she could

j u s t g e t

it

r i g h t t h e re a t

school

opposed to having to go to a s ep a ra t e prov ider ou ts ide of

the school day?

Yes

MS. FIELDS: I

d o n t b e l i ev e

I

n t u r

f l d ~ r

~ n q : h l t h e

fa

t

he-r r

v

d

t o Jlo r a d

b y h i s 0 .,1:1 C 10 J. Ce- ?

t S my U

ll e r s t

an

d

ing t ha t

his

j::.b t

r -ans

e r r ed

to

C

o l

or ado .

And Raymond i s not

t h e

fa the r

o f

Co rrec t .

co r rec t ?

MS. FIELDS: I

d o n t

have

any

o t h e r ques t ions ,

Your

Honor.


37/51

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r---

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THE

COURT:

Ms. Inge l s?

MS.

INGELS:

No,

Your Honor.

THE COURT:

Miss Johnson?

MS. JOHNSON:

No,

Your Honor.

THE

COURT:

Any r ed i r ec t ,

Mr.

Debenham?

CROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. DEBENHAM:

Q. Assuming t h a t the paren ts s ign what t hey need

to

do, in

fac t , I th ink

we ve

a l read y

es t ab l i shed

f a t h e r i s wil l ing

to s ig n whatever

he needs to , i he

s igns what

he needs

t

and cont inues h i s involvement and then KVC prov ides

the

o v ers ig h t ,

do

you

see

t h a t t h e r e s r e a l l y

any need

fo r an

educat iona l advocate?

A.

I t h i n k

it would b en e f i t as f a r

as

j u s t an

ad d i t i o n a l

s e rv i ce for the kids . I

th ink

it would be an

added

bene f i t

fo r

them.

Q. l

ou

ld - he

dlJ

aLi o na l

ad

vo

ca

e - -

waul

r L t.he educaLiona

a d

oc

a le ki

nd

of b s o n Lhe

Loes

o f t he

pa en

5?

I f you ve goL a pa e n l l h

a l

s

i n vo

lv ed

,

wo uldn l - n

educa i

ona

l advocaLe and the

ps

en 5 conce i va b

ly

e aL

o cis wi - h eac l ot..her?

A. I guess i t .

cou l

d

po1*e n

Lia

ly

b _ha .

ra

y ,

bL1 , I me.a

n ,

r ea l ly h

ones 1 y

don

kn

o : .

I

mean, obvious ly the

job of

the educa t iona l

advocate i s

to

make

t hose

f i n a l

d ec i s io n s

so I

d o n t

know

t ha t

they would be

ab le

to

coord ina te

wit


38/51

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Q.

A

Q.

A.

Q.

A

t h e p a ren t s ,

but

r t h in k t h a t i t h a t was something t h a t

would be a b l e

to be done it

would be a

g rea t b en e f i t t o

the kids to have t h a t ad d i t i o n a l s e rv i ce .

Even i

t h e p a ren t s

a re

wil l ing to

go ahead

and get

involved and ge t the rEP done?

r t h in k j u s t because of the p a ren t s l o ca t i o n ,

as

f a r

as ,

you

know

t h e y r e

not

a lways going

to

be a b l e

to

p a r t i c i p a t e by phone

when

phone

confe rence

comes up or

3

it j u s t would be

e a s i e r

to

have

somebody

here

in

Kansas t

kind

of

over see those

th ings .

Has the f a t h e r ever

t a lk ed

to

you

about being w i l l i n g

to

d r iv e back and

fo r th

to do t hose s o r t s o f a c t i v i t i e s ?

We a c t u a l l y

h a v e n t

had t h a t

c onve r sa t i on

as

f a r as

him

being w i l l i n g t o d r iv e

back

and fo r t h fo r

school

re l a t ed

t h in g s , so t h a t i s

something

we can

look

a t .

And he has

s a i d t h a t

h e d

be w i l l i n g

t o d r iv e back

and

fo r t h

fo r o t h e r a c t i v i t i e s ?

As f a r as v i s i t s .

MR DEBENHAM: Nothing

fu r t h e r ,

Your Honor.

THE COORT:

I have a ques t ion , and t h a

21 i s s in ce we were in cour t a t t he

d i s p o s i t i o n ,

which was back i

22 August ha ve t he pa

ren

s seen t h e ch i dren in

pe

rson a t a l l

23

24

25

A

DENIED ALL ACCESS TO THE CHILDREN FOR MONTHS

not s in c e

t e n

THE COURT:

Very wel l ,

thank you.

You

may have

a

sea t .


39/51

3

1

All

r i g h t , unless anybody

e l s e

has

any

o th e r ev idence

the

2 wish to p resen t

to

t he Cour t today ,

I ll proceed.

3

I v e

heard your

recommendations on t he

i s s u es

here .

4

MR. DEBENHAM: Y

our: Hon

o r

,

i f I might I ha t.e

t.o

5 i nt e je c

t

n o t h ~ SSU€: , but we v e

got

Tha nk s

gi

v1ng and

6

i s t m ~ s co

ml.ng u , and

it would

be

nice

to be ab le to

do

7

v i s i t a t i o n s .

8

I know the v i s i t a t i o n s

have

s t a r t ed , I t h in k t h e y r e even

9 going to be s t a r t i n g a f t e r the cour t hear ing today, but we re

10

look ing a t and

hoping fo r poss ib ly supe r v i se d

or

p re fe rab ly

11 unsuperv i sed

v i s i t s

here in Kansas dur ing the Thanksgiving

12 va c a t i on and

dur ing the

Chris tmas

vaca t ion .

13 W e l l

probably be

coming

back here

a f t e r

t h a t

poin t

but

i

14 would

be very

h e lp fu l

to the

p a ren t s

to

know

t h a t t h e y r e

goin

15 to be ab le to see t h e i r kids on the

ho l idays

a t

l e a s t .

16

MS INGELS:

Your

Hon o I woul o b

jet:' t

to any

17 p ~ r

s e d

vi

s i t a t i o n

a t

t.h i s po in t in tl.1;ne o t

he

Co r t j l l s

18

i n

qu1 ed , a nd the Cou

t

s very much awa r e , w ue

ha

d not

h1n

g

19 bu t re s t s a nce n t h i ~ ~ a s e and i L s greaL now

lh

L the l

as

20 11eek t h ~ fa th e r ha s a p a re n t ly

de

l ded h e s

go i

ng

LO

wo r k and

21 he l p w Lh Lh i gs , but we r e Do l t o a

f o in t

t o have un superv i s

22 vi s i t a t ion I do n t i ~ v e

in th

i s Gase .

23 W

e

Ie

n 0

: had th

e g tesy

we have

- - t he whole i s su e

24 of t h e

r e fu s a l

to do the drug t e s t a f t e r t he f i r s t temporary

25 cus tody

hear ing

and

so it s not been

a

s i t u a t i o n where

these


40/51

4

1

2

paren t s have compl ie d a nd wI l li ng ly done what has been

asked

o

them.

3 And over the ho l idays , as the

C o u r t s

aware, it s hard

to

4 get

superv i s ion

so t h a t

would

mean the

placement

would

have to

5

superv ise and I

d o n t th ink

t h a t s

ap p ro p r i a t e in t h i s

case .

6 t h i n k

t hey

should be al lowed superv ised v i s i t a t i o n through the

7 agency

as c lose to the ho l iday and around

t he ho l iday

as

8

al lowed and

every other

case , but

to have

any type o f

9 unsupervised

v i s i t a t i o n a t

t h i s poin t in -time, I

would objec t

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

to t h a t and I d o n t

b e l i ev e

i - t s ap p ro p r i a t e , and I d o n t th in

we can r eq u i r e the

agency

to

work

on

hol idays .

MR DEBENHAM:

Your

Honor,

if

I could add, we ve got

th ings going down the r i g h t

path

now,

I

would love to - -

I

th ink it would be help fu l

to

the

fami ly

under r e i n t e g ra t i o n

e f f o r t s

i f

we

can keep

th ings going

down the r i g h t

path t he re .

THE COURT: Thank you. I did read

t h a t

there has

been

t

he e

-as a

lJ]\ l ha

t

was

s

ub

m

t . l

ed t o on

October

14

th b

18 bot pa r en s

and

i t

w

as n

ega t

l v

9

f o r a ll

s

ub

s tances

and

th a

t s

19

t he o n

ly tJl\

I m a w re o f .

20 Miss

Fie lds ; i s t ha t co r rec t ?

21

22

23

MS FIELDS: I

apolog ize ,

Your

Honor.

THE COURT: I s

t h a t co r rec t ?

MS INGELS: J b e t ~ e th a t s

t he

on

l y one th? t s

24

bee

n

s ubmi t t ed

l .S

the r a n

do

m u

subro

t_t:

d th..rough I CP -.

25

THE COURT: And v i s i t a t i o n today

was going to

be a t


41/51

4

, r - -

1

Sunflower?

2 I s t h a t cor rec t , Ms.

Jackson?

3

MS

JACKSON:

Vis i ta t ion today i s

ac tu a l l y

going to

4

be

superv ised

5

6

7

8

IS

2

-

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

THE COURT:

vi Sl t a t lon ?

MS .

T

~ h s

h ~

n g

to

be

done

fo r t h t

DRUG TEST FOR CANNABISITHC

THE COURT:

We l

l , th a t

' s what

~ s o u r t

be no v

i s i

a

ons un

l

UA

' s are

done

a nd

Now, I have

one

more q ue s

l o

n an t h a t

i s , the re

was

re fe rence to - - in the repor t about the

ch i ld ren

doing

a c t i v i t i e s

tha t was

somehow connected to

church

at tendance.

MS INGELS: T h a t s my

unders t and ing t h a t

the parent

were

not

a l lowing the

ch i ld ren to p a r t i c i p a t e in Halloween

a c t i v i t i e s

unless

the placements were t ak ing them to

a

church.

However it s

my

unders tanding t h a t s been reso lved ,

the

paren t s have consented to the

chi ldren

p a r t i c ip a t i n g in

t r i c k

o r t r e a t i n g and Halloween p a r t i e s .

THE

COURT:

Very wel l .

MR

DEBENHAM: Y o u ~ Ho nor , T mig h t me n io n t hat

UA

,as

aone

on e

14th

a

nd

t

ha

t wa s Qone i n p r epa r

a t

l on

01: t i

v i s i t ,

so

r d o n t

th

in k t h a a ~ wo u ld need t o

be done

f o ~

t od ay

becau

se o ne was

a) read

y d o ne b e fo re h i s v sl t.


42/51

2

3

4

5

There may need to

be

UA s done before subsequent v i s i t s

but

I

d o n t

th ink the re

needs to be

one

fo r

t h i s

v i s i t .

MS.

INGELS:

You r HonOr I woul

d

~ k th

w

ju s

h ve

them go

downs t ai r s

pnd

do

one wi t h

our t

servi es .

Obviously, if t h e r e s nothing to hide, t h e r e s no i s sue with

6 having ano ther UA today.

This i s

the i s sue t h a t we ve

run

7 in to .

8

MS.

FIELDS:

Your Honor,

you

o rd e r d id

say

the UA s

9 should

be weekly, and

October

14th i s

not a week

away.

10 THE COURT:

I know t ha t Miss Fie lds , thank you.

11 All r igh t .

NOw

one other th ing i s , and

tha t

i s

I m

not

4

12 sure

what

the cur ren t address

i s

fo r

Mr.

Schwab because some o

13

the mail

t h a t the

county

has

sent , the

c l e r k s of f ice , has bee

14 re turned,

so

what i s , Mr

Debenham,

what i s your c l i e n t s

15

cur ren t address , j u s t for the record .

16

MR.

DEBENHAM:

It s the address

t h a t

i s

on

the KVC

17

repor t ,

18

19 THE COURT:

Thank

you.

The p r io r

orders

tha t

t h i s

20 Court has made

wi l l

remain

in fu l l fo rce and a f f e c t so fa r as

21

t h e y r e

not modified or i ncons i s t en t with the

orders

t ha t I

22 make af te rwards here .

23 The Court f inds t h a t

the appropr ia te

p u b l i c and

pr iva te

24

agencies

have made reasonable e f fo r t s to f a c i l i t a t e the

25

permanency p lan t h a t I wi l l o f f i c i a l l y adopt today. One t h a t

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Schwab Transcript