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2 -----------------------------------x3 In the Matter o f4 UNITED BROTHERHOOD OF CARPENTERS5 AND JOINERS OF AMERICA6 -----------------------------------x7 SPECIAL HEARING ON THE NEW YORK8 CITY & VICINITY DISTRICT Council9 OF CARPENTERS

1011 Jav i t s Convention Center

655 West 34th St ree t

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1415 B E FOR E:

New York, New YorkOctober 16, 20098:30 a.m.

16 MICHAEL V. DRAPER, Chairman17 ROBERT YEGGY, UBC Representa t ive18 C. "DANNY" MAPLES, UBC Representat ive192021

22232425 David Levy, CSR, Hearing Repor ter

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PRO C E E D IN G STHE CHAIRMAN: Can we turn the mics

on? Everybody come in , take your se a t ,we ' l l ge t th e h ea rin g s t a r t ed . Courtrepor te r ready?

Good morning, Brothers and Si s t e r s .This i s a hear ing to determine ifsupervis ion by the United Brotherhood ofCarpenters over the New York City Di s t r i c tCounci l of Carpenters should cont inue , andit's being he ld under the Cons t i tu t ion andlaws of the United Brotherhood. All o fyou received a not ice from the GeneralPres iden t , a l e t t e r to F rank Spenc er fromthe General Pres iden t s t a t i ng the reasonfo r having th i s hear ing.

I 'd l i k e to in t roduce the hear ingpanel . Over to my l e f t i s Bob Yeggy. Bobi s the Di s t r i c t Vice-Pres ident from theMidwest Di s t r i c t . To my r i gh t i s CharlesDanny Maples. He's the Di s t r i c tVice-Pres ident from the Southern Dis t r i c t .My name i s Michael Draper . I 'm theVice-Pres ident of the Western Di s t r i c t ,

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416Proceedings

and I'll be cha i r ing t h i s hear ing . Area l l fo lks in t h i s room members o f theorganiza t ion?

As the General Pres iden t ' s l e t t e ri nd ica t ed , if you rece ived it, t h i s i s ahear ing . It's not a t r i a l o r aprosecu t ion . We are an i nve s t i ga t i ngcommittee appoin ted by the GeneralP re sid en t to make f ind ings andrecommendations under 6D and 10H o f theUBC Cons t i tu t ion . We wi l l do our be s t toa f ford ample oppor tun i ty to everyone whowishes to t e s t i f y or submit ev idence tot h i s commit tee . We need your f u l lcoopera t ion to make sure t h i s hear ing i sconducted in an order ly manner.

There a re a few simple ru l e s andprocedures t h a t we need to fo l low. A llthose who wish to t e s t i f y in fron t of t h i scommit tee , please l e t us know byind ica t ing t h a t des i re when s ign ing yourname on the attendance shee t . At presen t ,it i s our i n t en t i on to take tes t imony onlyfrom members o f the Local Unions

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417Proceedings

a f f i l i a t e d with t h i s Council. O thermembers of the United Brotherhood maya t tend t h i s hear ing bu t no t t e s t i f y .

The committee may a ls o e xe rc is e i t sdi sc re t ion and a ll ow te st im o ny fromnon-member witnesses if the committeedetermines t h a t they have informationre levan t to the proceeding.

Testimony from witness wi l l be underoa th . All tes t imony wi l l be recorded bythe co ur t r epo r t e r who i s s i t t i ng r i gh tdown here . Time l im i t s may be imposed a tthe d i s c re t i on o f the cha i r . Each witnessshould s ta te h is o r her name an d L ocalUnion number fo r th e rec ord . Please speakc lea r ly and d i rec t ly so t h a t we can fol lowthe tes t imony and the cou r t repor t e r cange t every th ing down.

I re spec t fu l ly ask a l l those inattendance t h a t we be permi t t ed to conducta f a i r and order ly hear ing . There wi l l beno c ro s s f i r e o r ques t ions from the f loor .Witnesses wi l l s t a t e in t h e i r own mannerthe i r tes t imony fo r cons idera t ion of t h i s


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committee. Then the committee, in itsd i s c re t i on ; may have ques t ions fo rwitnesses . We wi l l keep order and moveth e h ea rin g along as needed.

And I repea t , t he re wi l l be nodi s rup t ions in th i s mee tin g b y members ofthe audience. Each of you wi l l have yourproper t u rn . The o f f i c i a l cou r t r epo r t e ri s capable of t aking every th ing down.There wi l l be one and only one o f f i c i a lrecord of th i s hear ing . Therefore , nop er so na l ta pe recorders o r o the r record ingdevices a re al lowed in t h i s room.

This sess ion th i s morning wi l l gofrom 8:30 'till 11:30 unless we haveconcluded with a l l t he w it ne ss es who wishto t e s t i f y . There wi l l be one moresess ion th at w il l begin a t one p.m. th i saf te rnoon , a nd con clu de a t 4:30 , o r un t i la l l witnesses have been heard who want tospeak.

We wi l l t r y to hear from a l lwitnesses who have anything to o f f e r inthe way of tes t imony or evidence


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concerning the mat ters t h a t have b eenout l ined genera l ly in th e h ea rin g not icet h a t I have prev ious ly read . Thisinc ludes tes t imony th a t r ela te s to th eopera t ions and a f fa i r s o f the Counci l as awhole.

The committee may a l so cons iderre levan t informat ion in the form o fdocuments and o the r exhib i t s as wel l . I fit sh ou ld b e n ec ess ar y a s a r e su l t o ftest imony, t h i s committee a t itsdi sc re t ion may a l so ask fo r documents tobe produced from the records o f theCounci l .

I f the re i s a need to , t h i s committeewi l l go o ff th e reco rd , fo r example, if wehave to confer about something t h a t hascome up or c l a r i fy a mat te r . But as Ihave s ta ted ea r l i e r , no c ro s s f i r e from thef loor . Whoever the witness i s upspeaking, l e t him o r her t e s t i f y to thecommittee and we ' l l conduct t h i s hear ingin a f a i r and amicable manner with themutual re spec t t h a t we owe one an oth er as


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members o f t h i s Union.T h e r e ' s no smoking i n t h e h e a r i n g

room. Turn o f f your cel lphone, and as youcome i n , p l e a s e remove h a t s o r caps.Thank you very much, and we w i l l begin t h eh e a r i n g and t h e f i r s t w i l l I'll c a l l it i sRobert Makowski.

MR. MAKOWSKI: I ' d ask t h e p an el if Icould w a i t and l e t o t h e r people f o r t h ef i r s t time and I'll speak l a t e r on, today?

THE CHAIRMAN: Well , okay, b u t youknow, I 'm g i v i n g you t h e o p p o rt un it y. I fit a v a i l s i t s e l f , I'll c a l l you l a t e r . I fit d o e s n ' t - - y o u ' l l have t o r e r e g i s t e r ,then.

MR. MAKOWSKI: L a t e r .THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. I ' m j u s t

saying. C a r l Joshua? C a r l i n t h e room?Carl i s n o t here? He r e g i s t e r e d a t 7:52.Veronica Sess ion. I s Veronica here?

I want you t o go f i r s t over h e r e ,give him your name, s p e l l your name, andthen he w i l l swear you i n .

(Continued on f ol low ing page .)


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Testimony - Veronica Session2 VERONICA S E S S IO N , h av in g b ee n3456789

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dUly sworn, t e s t i f i e d a s fo llows:THE CHAIRMAN: Veronica , wi l l you

come r i gh t over here and have a sea t . Youwant to pu ll th at mic r i g h t close to youthe re . Good morning.

THE WITNESS: Good morning.THE CHAIRMAN: What Local a re you

from?THE WITNESS: Local 926.THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead.THE WITNESS: As a member fo r 19

year s , you know, over the l a s t two years ,th ings changed so much t h a t it's more fo rthe cont rac to rs ra the r than themembership. I ' ve seen t h a t as a membermyself , and a lso as a shop steward.

The reason I 'm here today, no tn ec es sa ri ly to give a se rv ice , bu t to myunders tanding, th i s hear ing was to be agauge on whether we still should be undersupervis ion. So my poin t here th i smorning in coming i s the same, to end thesupervis ion.


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422Testimony - Veronica Sess ion

Those people who have been ind ic ted ,and of course , th ose c ase s haven ' t come tof ru i t ion ye t to know if they a re gui l ty ornot , bu t as a gene ra l i t y , members know fo rsure t h a t th ere a re th ings going on andnothing i s being done about it. So myhope, my hope, and I th ink my o the rSi s t e r s and Brothers hope the same, i st h a t something may be done.

It's not in any way ou t of our hands,bu t it's such a b ig machine a t th i s po in tt h a t the few of us who speak up, nothingever happens. And I found t h a t myself anumber of t imes . I reached the Hot Line,I - - bu t nothing eve r r ea l ly happens.

And a l so , those who have been, I'llsay, ind ic ted , those a re no t the only oneswho need to be, okay? There ' s m uch, much,much more going on than has been - - thanhas been shown r i g h t now. So we need helpfrom an e n t i ty th at i s t ru ly looking ou tfo r the members' beha l f , okay? This i sbare ly the sur face , okay?

There are members h ere , w ell , I would


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423Testimony - Veronica Session

have hoped t h a t th i s room would be muchfu l l e r than it i s now, bu t t h a t only goesto show t h a t we f e e l as a whole t h a tnothing i s going to be done. Time a f t e rt ime, it's been shown t h a t . T hings havegone - - a re going on t h a t out-of-worklist, I be l ieve , th ings a re going once r t a in ly with o the r t r ades doing our workwith non-Union members doing our work, anda whole myriad of t h ings , even though itmay no t seem on th e su rfa ce .

So what I ask you of i s to be givenenough t ime to de lve i n to th ings t h a t wi l lre al ly , r ea lly show what ' s going on and tochange t h a t . Because we c a n ' t do ita lone , okay? The members reach out ,choose to speak up, they a re b la c kb a ll ed ,okay?

I ' ve been here 19 year s , and I hopeto r e t i r e with some bene f i t s , bu t t h a t ' svery i f f y , because a couple of - - andt he re a re a l o t of people in th i s samepos i t i on , because we don ' t g e t th e - - thef a i r share of the work t h a t we sh ou ld be


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424Testimony - Veronica Sess ion

ge t t i ng . Everybody, every member, I knowI jo in ed th e Union because I be l i eved eventhough it would be hard , because it i s amale-dominated f i e ld , and t h a t was okay,bu t to the ex t en t t h a t it i s cor rup t , iti s biased , it i s antiwoman, and. it i s a lsoan t iminor i ty , I still was here fo r 19years bu t as a whole, we don ' t g e t thehours we deserve , and it's no t because ofany lack of i n t e l l igence , any lack o fsk i l l . It simply was of lack o fconnect ion.

So how th ings a re now, it'sabso lu te ly unfa i r , un ju s t , undemocrat icand it goes aga ins t what the Union i ssaying they a re supposed to be about .

So we ask - - I ask spec i f i ca l ly , andfo r my Si s t e r s and Brothers who chose notto be here because they a re working, o rbecause they a re scared , o r fo r whateverthe case may be , the major i ty o f us wouldbe here if we f e l t t h a t something wouldhappen. So again, j u s t to l e t you knowt h a t th i s whole s ys tem needs to be


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relooked a t , revamped, and - - because3 we - - we the members who a re r ea l ly456789

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going to go ou t and do the work a re no tgoing to be t r ea t ed f a i r l y and honest ly .And t h a t the j u s t about the tes t imony Ihave to say.

THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very muchfo r your test imony.

THE WITNESS: You're welcome.(Applause. )THE CHAIRMAN: John McHugh? John

McHugh? Dennis Luria , Dennis , a re youhere?

MR. LURIA: Yes, I am. The quest ionI have i s more spec i f i c as to what ' s goingon

THE CHAIRMAN: You've go t to come up,ge t sworn in and take the se a t .

20 DEN N I S L U R I A , having been duly sworn,2122232425

t e s t i f i ed as fo llows :THE CHAIRMAN: What Local a re you

from, John?THE WITNESS: Dennis . 926.THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, go ahead with

.



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426Testimony - Dennis L u r i a

your tes t imony.THE WITNESS: Well , l i k e I s a i d , it's

more s p e c i f i c because what I wanted t oknow i s , w i l l any o f t h e members t h a t weref i r e d , with they be e l i g i b l e t o r e c e i v et h e i r pension o r any o f t h e monies t h a ta r e due t o them due t o t h e f a c t t h a t theya r e f i r e d ?

THE CHAIRMAN: I d o n ' t know - - youknow, you 've g o t t o unders tand something.We're n o t h e r e t o answer q u e s t i o n ss p e c i f i c about New York.

THE WITNESS: Right , b u t - -THE CHAIRMAN: I d o n ' t unders tand

I mean, I unders tand t h a t - - i s t h i s aboutt h e indic tments? I d o n ' t know what y o u ' r et a l k i n g about , members t h a t have beenf i r e d . I d o n ' t know even what y o u ' r et a l k i n g about .

THE WITNESS: We were t a l k i n g aboutpeople t h a t were i n t h e D i s t r i c t Counci lt h a t no l o n g e r have t h e i r j o b s f o rwhatever r e a s o n , because they were f i r e d ,t h e i n d i c t m e n t s - -


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427Testimony - Dennis Lur ia

THE CHAIRMAN: I'll answer t h i s oneques t ion . The people who have a vestedpension and a r i gh t to draw pension, t h a thas nothing to do w ith the cr imina lp ro ce ed in g, th ey a re en t i t l ed under ERISAto draw a pension. Tha t ' s your quest ion,t h a t ' s the answer.

Pat Mee?M E E , h av in g b ee n duly sworn, t e s t i f i e d

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as fol lows:THE CHAIRMAN: Good morning, PatTHE WITNESS: Good morning.THE CHAIRMAN: What Local Union?THE WITNESS: 926.THE CHAIRMAN: You have to ge t close

to the mic and t a lk f a i r ly slowly.THE WITNESS: I never intended to

come up here so th i s wi l l be very - - I20 mean, I j u s t I whatever has been2122232425

sa id before I go t here , so t h i s i s goingto be kind of - - okay. F i r s t th ing I wantto say, I ' ve never heard - - I want theFedera l government to come back in andsend an i nves t iga to r . The only f u l l


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428Testimony - Dennis Luria

change t h a t came in th i s Union i s by theFederal gov er nmen t, a nd every f ind ing ,every disc losure has been through theFedera l Government, no t through our Union.

There a re two very pos i t ive f ede ra lregu la t ions . The drug t e s t i ng and thebackground checks, as f a r as I know, a real ready in law, and wi l l not go i n toe f f e c t in New York so your Union o f f i c i a l sare not fol lowing the law. I mean,someone sa id it cos t s too much, it cos t s19,000 a month, which adds up to 1,080,000a year . The people we have now cos t660,000 I be l ieve . Found abso lu te lynothing. They a re h av in g d ru g t e s t i ng .Nobody sa id anything.

So fo r $660,000, you ' re ge t t ingsomeone to jo in th e p arty ? Orfur thermore , we' re ge t t i ng someoneevery th ing t h a t was found to date wasfound by him, no t by anyone in ourDi s t r i c t Counc i l o r anything e l se . As fo rthe Di s t r i c t Counci l e l e c t i ons themselves ,dur ing the l a s t e lec t ion , one of the

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c a n d i d a t e s , what was h i s name, Hector?That had a disagreement - - they roughed

4 him up o u t s i d e . I mean, t h i s i s a f a i r5

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e l e c t i o n ? This i s America, t h i s i s 2008,was it, a candidate g o t t h e c r a p b e a t o u to f him? This i s n o t t h e 19th c e n t u r ywhere t h i s happened. You go t o t h e s eUnion meetings and everyone i s sa yin g, yesour v oice counts and a l l t h i s ? It d o e s n ' tcount .

I went t o Union meetings . I ' m comingfrom t h e o u t s i d e i n , I t h i n k . I went t o aUnion mee tin g and they were having v o t e sand I ' m s t a n d i n g t h e r e and I say t o t h eguy n e x t t o me, " I c a n ' t h e a r a word h e ' Ssaying. What a r e we v o t i n g on?" He s a y s ," T h e r e ' s a reason you c a n ' t h e a r . You'ren o t supposed t o h e a r . " And t h e only t h i n gyou would h e a r " i s a l l i n f a v o r , " and thenit was y e a s , and it g o t t o one p o i n t wherehe s a i d " a l l i n f a v o r , " and nobodyanswered. Nobody i n t h e room answered.So, and t h e motion passed.

So d o n ' t t e l l me t h e s e v o t e s a r e



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happening. I mean, the reason nobody'shere and the reason I th ink you heardyesterday, nobody can ge t any informat ionfrom anyb ody on anything.

I mean, so I want th e fe de ra lgovernment back in . I don ' t know if t h a ta f fec ted you o r not . I was - - bu t thef a c t th a t you ' re back again shows t h a t wecannot , as somebody people sa id y et , wecannot cont ro l ourse lves .

I mean, yesterday it came ou t to me,a l l these people coming up saying, "Oh,yes , we have people qua l i f i ed in NewYork," t h a t weren ' t apparen t ly in the job .I f people want more Unio n pa r t i c i pa t i on ,the one t h ing , I th ink it's the sameproblem the engineers had , everybody mustvote . I f you a re in the Union, if the rei s an e lec t ion , you must vote . I f you dono t vote , you do no t have the r i g h t towork. That i s pla in and s imple . Thebigges t change t h a t ' s going to make th i sUnion work i s , eve ry body mus t vote in ane lec t ion . F i r s t s top . Not - - a p icke t


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duty . Picke t duty i s compulsory o r pay a .f ine . Why c an ' t we - - t h i s i s the mostfundamental th ing fo r th i s Unio n, whe reevery member who doesn ' t have a voice , heshould vote . I f they don ' t vote , theyhave no r i gh t to come here and complain.I f the l a s t e lec t ions , I read the

ac tua l r e su l t s and if you go to - - Icou ldn ' t f ind l a s t nigh t , I - - bu t I t h inkthe re was 797 votes s e t ou t aga ins t him.There was no votes passed aga ins t him.With a l l the votes , 25,000 members, nobodyvoted fo r any candida te o the r than MikeForde. They do t h i s in African count r ie s ;and when they come out , nobody votedaga ins t him, obvious ly , the e lec t ion wasr igged o r something.

So Mike Forde cou ldn ' t ge t , a f t e r hewas brought up on charges fo r accept ingb r ibe s , and nobody would could ac tua l lypass a va l i d vote and vote aga ins t him?And no one th inks t he re i s something wronghere?

Plus the f ac t , he cos t us $700,000


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432Testimony - Dennis L u r i a

l a s t year? I mean, Walte r Mack thought hec o s t us a m i l l i o n . Mike Forde c o s t us$7,02,568 l a s t y e a r .

And a n o t h e r t h i n g , everyone i ss a y i n g , with a l l t h i s d i s c l o s u r e . I wantt o know Mike F o r d e ' s s a l a r y , becauseeverybody i s saying t h i s , b u t a s f a r a s Iknow, t h e r e ' s n o t a t r u s t e e s h i p involved.He 's n o t a t r u s t e e on t h e b e n e f i t funds,and from what I unders tand, and I c a n ' tf i n d t h i s on t h e I n t e r n e t , t h i s i s t h es a l a r y o f a hundred thousand d o l l a r s ? Iwant t o know, our o f f i c e r s , t h e t e s t , t h ejobs they have a s - - t h e jobs t h a t theyp u b l i c l y h o l d , t h i s j o b s t he y a pp oi nte dthemselves t o and how much they g e t p a i dfrom t h e s e j o b s . I want t o know h i s t o t a ls a l a r y . I want t o know what jobs h e ' sgiven h i m s e l f , and a l l h i s - - a n o t h e rt h i n g , b u s in e s s a g e nt s and t h e i r expenses ,someone work ed on $30,000 expenses , andt h a t ' s it. T h a t ' s a l l y o u ' r e t o l d .

I want a breakdown on t h e b u s i n e s sexpenses . I want t o know - - w e ' r e paying


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t h e i r t o l l s and we' re paying a l l the regas . Fa i r enough. So where, a f t e r a l l oft h i s , I mean, I go to work. I don ' t have$27,000 expenses a year . So I want toknow where they a re spending $27,000 onca rs . I j u s t want to know where it'sgoing. Fa i r enough, if it's work-re la ted.I j u s t want to know where. I don ' t want aone l i n e - - t h a t covers f i f t y pe r cen t o fh is sa la ry fo r a year is one l i ne , andthe - - the o nly re aso n it's the re , becausethe Federa l Government forced them tore lease th i s informat ion.

I f th i s wasn ' t answered, we wouldknow nothing. You have my shop s tewardscoming ou t s ay in g th ey c an ' t ge t a copy ofthe con t r a c t we' re working under . So youmean, do you th ink they a re going tore lease - - we can ' t even f ind a con t r a c tt h a t was s igned on our beha l f , supposedlyfo r our benef i t ? The informat ion i s notforthcoming from these people . It neverdoes . The reason t he re a re so few peoplehere i s because they have a l l been bea ten


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down because no informat ion ever i sre leased from the people who a re in powernow.

The mere f ac t t h a t the same crew go tback in a f t e r the disas t rous job they d idthe l a s t t ime to me i s j u s t shocking. Butth ree thousand members, I th ink , ou t o f25,000? To me, t h a t ' s ju st wrong.

The out-of-work list, I th ink it'sf ine exac t ly as it i s . I have memberscome up

THE CHAIRMAN: Let me i n t e r rup t youfo r a second. I want to go back to yourpoin t t he re . I mean, you 've drawn ou t a l lthese term s and accusat ions . That you hadan e le ct io n fo r the execut ive sec re ta ry .T hr ee th ou sa nd people voted. So t h a t ' sf raud . Now, how

THE WITNESS: Not the th ree thousand.I be l ieve th ree thousand people went downto vote .

THE CHAIRMAN: Bu t I 'm saying , whyd id t h a t cons t i tu t e a fraud?

THE WITNESS: No, t h a t doe sn ' t


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cons t i tu t e a f raud .THE CHAIRMAN: You sa id it was f raud .THE WITNESS: No, I sa id it was - - I

d i dn ' t say it was a f raud. I sa id it wassomething extremely suspic ious .

THE CHAIRMAN: Was the re anycandidate running aga ins t Mr. Forde?

THE WITNESS: There had to be, Ibe l ieve .

THE CHAIRMAN: Well , I don ' t know.THE WITNESS: I don ' t - - okay. I

j u s t th ink it's wrong, the fa c t th a tnobody voted aga ins t him. He had novotes - -

THE CHAIRMAN: Well , if the re wasonly one candidate , he would ge t the votest h a t went down to vote , I presume. Idon ' t know. I have no i dea whether the rewas a contes t ed e lec t ion o r not . I wasn ' there .

THE WITNESS: As f a r as I know, it'scontes ted. That i s - -

THE CHAIRMAN: But when we s t a r tus ing f raud and a l l of th is s tu ff , let's


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th ink about what we' re t a lk ing about . Imean, if a member chooses not to vote ,t h a t ' s the i r r i gh t . You can vote o r no t

.vo.te. I mean, we' re no t here forc ingpeople to vote if they choose no t to vote .Tha t ' s the i r r i gh t . So in the UnitedSta te s , what we ought to do i s punisheverybody wh o doesn ' t vote in a generale lec tion? T ha t 's absurd on the face ofit, to pun is h p eopl e fo r exerc is ing ar i gh t to withhold t h e i r vote . We c an ' t dotha t .

THE WITNESS: I th ink it has to bedone - -

THE CHAIRMAN: Well , t h a t ' s youropinion.

THE WITNESS: - - I know, which i s - -everybody 's go t t h e i r opinion. This i smine. I d i dn ' t e xp ec t p eo ple to agreewith me. I know the engineers do it. Iknow the system we have no w doe sn ' t work.

THE CHAIRMAN: I don ' t th ink so , bu tth at 's - -

THE WITNESS: I th ink something has


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to be changed. I th ink members have to beforced to be involved a t t h i s s ta ge , s in cethey a re no t ge t t ing involved. I f theywant to save the Union, members have toge t involved. They a re not doing it.This i s not happening . Three thousandpeople ou t of 25,000 decided the en t i r efu tu re o f th i s Union. I th ink people have

10 to be forced to go ou t and vote . I 'm not1112131415161718192021

saying it has to be done every t ime, bu t Ith ink fo r once , p eo ple s ho uld have to showt h a t they can make a di f f e rence and if youhave to force them to do it fo r once, Ith ink t h a t ' s what you have to do.

I honest ly be l ieve t h a t if the sameth ree thousand people who a re c o nt ro ll i ngevery th ing now continue to do so in thefu tu re , nothing i s going to change. So ifwe' re going to change something, I th inkt h a t i s the th ing we have to address . The

22 more even from one list, if we can ge t232425

t h i s Union running being some ways t r a igh t , and then when something wi l lchange from t h i s , then people wi l l say,


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"Well , something i s wrong here . " Rightnow, and you've had tes t imony t h a t s inceth i s Union was f i r s t formed 120 years ago,it has been cor rup t . This came ou tyes terday, th at th is Union has always beencor rup t . So what I 'm saying i s , we haveto ge t to a s tage where, we' re saying t h a tt h i s i s a Union t h a t it i s so n orm al,so - - people a re doing what they a resupposed to do and then when it changesfrom t h a t , people wi l l say, "Well , maybet h e re ' s something wrong here . "

I mean, it's my opinion. I 'm no tsaying I 'm r i gh t , I 'm not saying I 'mwrong, bu t everybody e l se i s giv ingt h e i r s , so I'll say, t h i s i s what Ithought .

The out-of-work list. I heardeveryone bashing cont rac to rs . It's notthe cont rac to rs who a re making a for tuneou t of t h i s , it's the developers .Everybody who i s a t tack ing the cont rac to rsth inks it's going t o c on tr ac to rs . It'snot . They don ' t make a fo r tune . I ' ve met



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cont rac to rs , and they ' a re no t l i v i ng t h a tl i f e s ty l e , I f you want to a t tack someone,you go a f t e r the developers who a re t ry in gto br ing down the pr ice of having thep lace bu i l t ,

The idea came up t h a t he should havea job , t h a t he th inks the Union should ge thim a job , I don ' t th ink the Union i shere to supply him a job . The Union i shere to supply working condi t ions underwhich he works when you obta in a job .

This i s no t where everybody ge ts ajob r egard less of your s k i l l s . Why shouldcont rac tor s be forced to h i re you if youhave no sk i l l s , and the re a re people ou tthe re . The apprent iceship program doesno t work. I don ' t know what the school i sl i k e . I ' ve seen apprent ices on the job .An apprent ice on the job, h is job i s tohold mate r ia l s and pu t in i nsu la t ion .Tha t ' s it. Shop s tewards a re going ou tsee ing they a re doing t h e i r jobs? as fa ras I know, t h e re ' s a Union ru le provid ingapprent ice must work a ce r t a i n number of

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hours on the too ls pe r week. This i s no tbei ng enf or ced. This i s n ot b rin gin g th eapprent ices up the par . You haveapprent ices who a re coming ou t and a f t e rfour year s , they a re t o ld to holdSheetrock and pu t in i nsu la t ion . Tha t ' sa l l t hey 've done in four year s .

The Union i s supposed to s top it.They don ' t - -

THE CHAIRMAN: All r i gh t , w e're n otgoing to debate th ings back and fo r th inthe audience. Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: Another th ing theFedera l Government found i s t h a t most ofthe t ime we were s up ply in g o ur employeeswith ca rs . They were l eas ing ca rs . Wewere l eas ing ca rs fo r our employees, t h a tit was i l l e ga l and the Federa l Governmentfound it. And t h a t ' s about it.

THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.(Applause. )THE CHAIRMAN: Mark Kennedy?(Continued on fo l lowing page. )


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441Testimony - Mark KennedyKEN NED Y , having been duly sworn,

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t e s t i f i ed as fol lows:THE CHAIRMAN: Mark, what Local a re

you from?THE WITNESS: From Local 608.THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, go ahead.THE WITNESS: I j u s t have a s ingle

quest ion. I s there going to be at r an sc r ip t of these proceedings?

THE CHAIRMAN: The answer i s yes .There wi l l be a t r an sc r ip t . Anybody, anyLocal , any en t i ty t h a t wants to purchaseone, make arrangements with the cou r trepor t e r .

THE WITNESS: And how do you ar rangetha t , how do you make those arrangements?

THE CHAIRMAN: Talk to him r i gh there .

THE WITNESS: Can you answer aquest ion fo r me r i g h t now? Tel l me how tomake those arrangements?

THE CHAIRMAN: I know, bu t he ' styping .

THE WITNESS: I r ea liz e th a t. I


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Testimony - Thomas Gormanwould have to purchase t h i s?

THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, the Local Unioncan purchase it. Whoever wants at r an sc r ip t wi l l purchase it.

Thomas Gorman?

442

7 THO MAS G 0 R MAN , having been duly8 sworn, t e s t i f i ed as fo l lows:9

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THE CHAIRMAN: What Local a re youfrom?

THE WITNESS: Local Union 608.THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, go ahead.THE WITNESS: Ju s t some sugges t ions .

Our member services a t the school s t inksif you ask me. All shop s tewards , foremenand

THE CHAIRMAN: Would you ge t a littlec lo se r to the mic

THE WITNESS: All s hop fo remen andt eachers should have to take the shops teward c la sses , too . I f the re ' s drugt es t ing , a lcohol and background checks fo rbus iness agents and shop s tewards , itshould be done fo r a l l members. All shops tewards should have 15 years exper ience


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443Testimony - Thomas Gorman

in the f i e ld .(Applause.)THE WITNESS: Teach ru les and

barga in ing agreements a t the school . A llc las ses should be ava i lab le to a l l membersweekly. Not, it takes mon th s some times toge t a c l a s s . A ll carpenters t h a t comei n to the Union from the non-Union f i e l dsh ou ld b e t e s t ed fo r the i r sk i l l s , no tj u s t handed a book. Members should beable to sponsor - - Union members should beable to s po ns or p eo pl e to g e t them i n tothe Union. You can ' t ge t people in theUnion if you've been on the Union now.You have to wai t on some bogus list t h a tmaybe they choose you. All s top s tewardsand carpen te r s should work ou t o f theLocal f i r s t . Then if we need otherca rpen te r s , they should come from var iousl oca l s . That doesn ' t happen anymore. Allmembers should go to a t l e a s t s ix Unionmeet ings in every L ocal, ev ery member,Di s t r i c t Counci l , everybody, school .A ll money t h a t i s made in New York


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sh ou ld be inves ted with New York companiesin New York. It shouldn ' t l eave our c i ty .

(Applause. )THE WITNESS: There should be no

co-pay on hea l th benef i t s , denta l , eye o rmedicat ion. For the amount of money wepay in b en ef i ts , we shouldn ' t be p ay in gthese co-pays. Ret i r ees should g e t morejobs in the Di s t r i c t Counci l . Ins tead o fwork the ou t in the f i e l d 30 hours a montho r whatever it may be , th ey sh ou ld o f f e rthem jobs and take away people in theDi s t r i c t Counci l in orde r to cu t thecos t s .

(Applause. )THE WITNESS: The new out -of -work

list sho uld b e enforced. We should s topLocal 7 Westches ter , New Je r sey , and a l lo th er o u ts id e l o ca l s from working in ourareas . Accept supervis ion. We should ge tr id of t he o rg an iz in g depa rtmen t because Ifee l t h a t they haven ' t kept the non-Unioncont rac tor s continuously paying Unionbene f i t s . We've taken non-Union


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c o n t r a c t o r , you we g e t t h e i r members, theyd o n ' t even have s k i l l s , a l o t o f them, andthen t h e i r c o n t r a c t o r i s no l o n g e r payingb e n e f i t s and w e ' r e s t u ck with them.

Get r i d o f a l l t h e assessments . BAsshould t a k e over t h e o r g a n i z e r ' s job l i k eo r g a n i z i n g p i c k e t l i n e s and t u r n i n gc o n t r a c t o r s . A l l Union b u s i n e s s a g e n t sI n t e r n a t i o n a l j o b s should be voted upon.A l l t h e members should v o t e f o r t h o s ej o b s , n o t l i k e McCarron appointed h i m s e l fi n a f t e r he g o t voted i n , then hec o n t i n u o u s l y a p p o in t s h im s e l f i n .

THE CHAIRMAN: Now, h o l d it, s t o p it.You're g e t t i n g way, way, way, I d o n ' t knowwhere y o u ' r e coming up with some o f t h e s ec r a z y i d e a s , b u t Doug McCarron has neverappointed h i m s e l f i n t o anything. DougMcCarron i s e l e c t e d by d e l e g a t e s , a t ag e n e r a l convent ion every f i v e y e a r s , solet's s t o p t h e b u l l s h i t and g e t on witht h e f a c t s , okay?

L e t me t e l l you something, y o u ' r emaking a l l o f t h e s e w i ld a c c u sa ti o n s about

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446Tes t imony- Thomas Gorman

s t u f f t h a t you abso lu te ly have noknowledge o f ; so let's s t ick with thef a c t s .

I f you have fac t s , then don ' t makes ta tements .

THE WITNESS: I f e e l the membersshould vote , okay? All r i gh t , movingalong, you shouldn ' t be so angry. Itshows something i s wrong - -

(Applause. )THE WITNESS: Afte r doing your job as

a b us in es s a ge nt fo r two terms, I be l ieveyou should move on to the In te rna t iona lfo r two t e rms , and then you should go downand teach a t the Di s t r i c t Counci l tocontinue on. Okay? And if it was votedin , I be l ieve McCarron wouldn ' t be inof f i ce today. Thank you very much.

(Applause. )THE CHAIRMAN: Would you sit back

down fo r a second? You're obviously , youhave a t l e a s t a percept ion t h a t you knowwhat ' s r i g h t or wrong. This i s the secondtime I ' ve heard t h i s , and I j u s t want your


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observa t ion . Pension money, you sa id youwant a l l pension money inves ted in NewYork Ci ty , r igh t?

THE WITNESS: The money t h a t wasearned in New York I fee l sho uld b einves ted in New York companies t h a t bu i ldt h e i r bui ld ings Union, we sh ou ld b einves ted with them

THE CHAIRMAN: So your opin ionTHE WITNESS: - - keep our money in

our c i ty .THE CHAIRMAN: Le t me j u s t f i n i sh .

Your opin ion i s , we take a l l pens ion moneyand inves t it in bui ldings?

THE WITNESS: A ll money, New York 'smoney.

THE CHAIRMAN: This i s pension andevery th ing , i s t h a t r igh t?

THE WITNESS: Yes, a l l the funds.A ll funds t h a t we c rea t e in New Yorkshould s tay in New York.

THE CHAIRMAN: Building bui ld ings?THE WITNESS: Excuse me?THE CHAIRMAN: Bu il di ng bu i ld i ng s?


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THE WITNESS: No, n o t b u i l d i n gb u i l d i n g s . With t h e inves tment f i r m s , saylet's j u s t use Goldman Sachs as anexample. He b u i l t h i s b u i l d i n g Union.Why s h o u l d n ' t he be one o f t h e people t h a tb i d on g e t t i n g our c o n t r a c t s i n o r d e r t oi n v e s t our money, whether it's a n n u i t y ,v a c a t i o n , pension? Why a r e n ' t most peopleo f f e r e d t h e j o b , why i s it s e n t t o o t h e rp l a c e s ? T h a t ' s a l l I 'm s u g g e st in g . It'sa s u g g e s t i o n now, s i r .

THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, w a i t a minute .Goldman Sachs - -

THE WITNESS.: He b u i l t h i s b u i l d i n gUnion - -

THE CHAIRMAN: A l l r i g h t . But nowb u t you make t h e s e s t a t e m e n t s aboutsomething t h a t you want. Goldman Sachs i san i n t e r n a t i o n a l , worldwide inves tment , soif you p u t your money i n Goldman Sachs i nNew York C i t y , o r anybody e l s e i n New YorkC i t y , your assumpt ion i s t h a t it's goingt o s t a y i n New York C i t y .

THE WITNESS: No, t h a t ' s n o t t r u e .


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449Testimony - Steven Seda

Could be i n v e s t e d i n China. I d o n ' t wantt o g e t i n t o being a f i n a n c i a l a n a l y s tr i g h t now, s i r , thank you very much.

THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, thank you.Steven Seda.

7 S T E V E N S E D A , having been duly sworn,89

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t e s t i f i e d as fo llows:.THE CHAIRMAN: Steven, what Local a r e

you from?THE WITNESS: Local 2287.THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead with your

tes t imony.THE WITNESS: I ' v e j u s t come h e r e t o

say today t h a t I f e e l t h e t r u s t e e s shouldbe r e p l a c e d . I f e e l t h e Union i s nolonger f o r t h e members. I f e e l it's f o rt h e c o n t r a c t o r s .

THE CHAIRMAN: What do you mean byt r u s t e e s , can you d e f i n e t h a t ?

THE WITNESS: People t h a t a r e on t h eboard, people t h a t have been e l e c t e d .Also, I t h i n k t h e r e sho uld be term l i m i t s .These people seem t o g e t i n o ff i c e andthey a r e on t h e s l a t e now, and then they


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450Testimony - Anthony Garcia

go - - I th ink g e t t oo com fo rta bl e. Tha t ' sr ea l ly bas ica l ly it in a nut she l l . I 'mnot going to - -

THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Steve, fo ryour test imony.

(Applause. )THE CHAIRMAN: Anthony Garcia?

9 AN THONY GAR C I A , having been duly10111213141516171819202122232425

sworn, t e s t i f i e d as fo llo ws:THE CHAIRMAN: A ntho ny , w hat Local

a re you from?THE WITNESS: Local 157.THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead with your

tes t imony.THE WITNESS: I j u s t want to , fo r the

record , I want to say t h a t when I votedfo r , in the e lec t ion , the EST freedomteam, whatever it was, t he re was no - -nobody running aga ins t EST Forde. Nobodywas running aga in s t him. There was noyou know, I looked to see if t he re was acompet i tor o r somebody running aga ins tForde. There was nobody there .

I f you ge t a copy of the ba l l o t , th e


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vot ing b al lo t, y o u' l l see , nobody wasrunning aga ins t Forde. So who could youvote fo r EST? You know, fo r EST pos i t ion?Only Forde.

THE CHAIRMAN: It would b e b ec au senobody nominated - -

A VOICE: I th ink the member needs tobe cor rec t ed . There was somebody runningaga in s t

THE CHAIRMAN: Well , you can come upand co r r e c t it on tes t imony. I don ' tknow. I wasn ' t here - -

THE WITNESS: I d i dn ' t see no - - and,you know, I be l ieve t h a t I ' ve beenblackba l l ed and mistrea ted in th i s Unionbecause - - I 've been a shop s teward a lso .And I was taken ou t by Maurice Leary. Hetook me out . He di sc red i t ed me and he

20 a lso he also - - he j u s t , you know, he2122232425

switched me on, you know, and he took myname o f f the shop s teward list. He pu t - -he pu t me on - - on the regu la r list t h a tdoe sn ' t even move. I 've been on t h a t listfo r over a year . I ' ve been on t h a t list


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fo r over a year , s ince July of l a s t - - of2008. I 've been on t h a t list. Thatdoesn ' t move. I 'm number 16 on t h a t listr i gh t now. A year and - -

THE CHAIRMAN: Will you do me afavor , expla in to me , aga in , you have tounders tand we' re no t f ami l ia r with whathappens in New York because we' re none ofus from here . Yo u say " tha t l i s t . " I st he re more than one l i s t ?

THE WITNESS: I don ' t know. I don ' tknow ho w many l i s t s a re a t the Dis t r i c tCounci l because they don ' t show us . Theyju s t , when you c a l l up fo r your number,when you ca l l up the out-of-work list,they t e l l you what your number i s . Tha t ' sit. So I don ' t have - - I c an ' t see whatthey are looking a t on t h e i r computer.But they j u s t look a t it and they say t h a tyour number i s 16 o r 15 - -

THE CHAIRMAN: So your tes t imony i st h a t over the l a s t year , you 've beennumber 16 and you haven ' t moved?

THE WITNESS: No, no. I was number



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t h r e e thousand and change back a y e a r ago.THE CHAIRMAN: So y o u ' r e number 16

now.THE WITNESS: J u l y o f l a s t y e a r . Now

I ' m number 16 and I still h a v e n ' t beenc a l l e d t o go o u t t o work. Because peoplea r e r e q u e s t e d from t h e out-of-work listand, you know, people a r e j u s t beingr e q u e s t e d . They a r e n o t b e i n g , you know,t h a t we - - t h a t ' s why t h e list d o e s n ' tmove, because people a r e j u s t beingr e q u e s t e d from t h a t list. And I ' m av e s t e d c a r p e n t e r , you know, I ' v e been i nt h e Union f o r 15 y e a r s , 15, 16 y e a r s .

THE CHAIRMAN: Well , it appears t h a tit moved some if you were number t h r e ethousand and now y o u ' r e number 16, soundsl i k e it moved about t h r e e thousand p o i n t s .I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?

THE WITNESS: I n a year?THE CHAIRMAN: Am I r i g h t ?THE WITNESS: No. I n over a y e a r .

But it's over a y e a r , let's s e e , J u l y ,August , September, October - - November


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a year and four months I 'm number 16. Ayear and four months. And you know, Iwould l ike - - I would l i ke them toinves t iga te a l so , they pu t me onsuspension fo r th ree year s . For th reeyears on the shop s teward list, I c an ' t bea shop s teward fo r th ree years , they go tme a suspension fo r t h a t . Why they j u s t ,if they want to d ev as ta te me, wh y don ' tthey j u s t ban me a l toge the r from being ashop s teward, o r , you know, but , you know,I want th i s inves t iga ted .

Why, you know, why do I ge t such aharsh punishment as to , you know, I can ' tbe a shop s teward fo r th ree years? I 'm insuspension fo r th re e y ea rs , why? I wouldl i k e to know why.

THE CHAIRMAN: Was there somethingt h a t had happened? Was the re a t r ibuna l ,had t he re been a problem on the job? Idon ' t know.

THE WITNESS: I went to the school .I went to school , I took th e c arp en te rc la sses , I took the - - you know, and I


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passed a11 o f theTHE CHAIRMAN: Okay. So your

tes t imony i s t h a t somebody a rb i t r a r i 1y ,without any j u s t cause , suspended you as ashop s teward fo r th re e y ea rs , j u s tuni1atera11y d id t h i s ; i s t h a t co r rec t?

THE WITNESS: It shou1d be 100kedin to .

THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. We11, I 'm j u s tt r y ing to f ind ou t what the fac t s are .Was t he re , nobody sa id t h a t you d id t h i s ,t h a t or th e o th er? They j u s t s a id you a renow suspended?

THE WITNESS: No, they took me inf ron t o f a board , bu t they pu11ed me o f f a1 i s t and then they brought me aga ins t - -aga ins t a board in December of 1a s t year ,th ey b ro ug ht me up aga ins t a board and - -and they sa id i s t h a t I , you know, whatcont r ac tor 1ikes a shop s teward in th i sc i t y , you know, and what c o nt ra c to r 1 ik e s,you know, fo r shop s tewards to , you know,ca11 in the - - the - - what ' s going on ont h e i r job , if they want to cu t corners ,


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you know, and c a l l th a t in , whatcont rac to r l ikes t h a t about a shopsteward?

THE CHAIRMAN: Well, the board - -again, you ' l l have to pardon me, bu t i sth i s board c on si st in g o f Union people o rcont rac tor s?

THE WITNESS: What board?THE CHAIRMAN: You sa id they ca l l ed

you in before a board.THE WITNESS: Yeah.THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Was t h a t Union

people?THE WITNESS: Yeah, Union people .THE CHAIRMAN: So what does tha t have

to do with a cont rac tor?THE WITNESS: Nothing. But I 'm j u s t

saying, what cont rac to rs l ike shops tewards on the i r jobs? You know?

THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.THE WITNESS: And I j u s t - - I j u s t

want j u s t i ce , you know? Jus t i ce , youknow, t h i s Union - - I don ' t know. Fal l ingapar t . You know. All r i gh t .


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457Testimony - John Maggi

THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you f o r yourtes t imony. John Maggi? I s John here?

4 J 0 H N MAG G I , having been duly sworn,56789

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t e s t i f i e d a s fo l lows:THE CHAIRMAN: Good morning. Could

you give us your Local, p l e a s e ?THE WITNESS: 157.THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, p ro ce ed w it h

your tes t imony.THE WITNESS: I came up with one

s p e c i f i c q u e s t i o n , and I had no one r a i s e dby t h e l a s t c o u p l e ' s tes t imony. And It h i n k , remember, y o u ' r e n o t from h e r e , andremember, we a r e h e r e and g e t veryf a m i l i a r with t h e everyday a c t i v i t i e s beand we know each o t h e r , so i n s t e a d o f an" I , " many o f u s , "We" might f e e l t h a tw e ' r e on t h e list f o r 18 months and go o u tf o r a job f o r s i x weeks, and go back ont h e list f o r 14 months, when we see manyo th e r c a rp e n t er s go t o an eight-month joband they a r e only o u t o f work a week andgo back o u t t o ano the r eight-month j o b .So


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THE CHAIRMAN: So they are cal led?THE WITNESS: Ins tead o f , I have a

problem or ano the r ind iv idua l has aproblem, maybe if you 'd look in to thegene ra l ope ra ti on and the workings of thework list so many of us - - you ' re not fromhere , we a re . It ge ts hard to descr ibewhen we fe e l th is i s being adminis te red ,okay

THE CHAIRMAN: For my educat ion,the re ' s only one work l i s t ?

THE WITNESS: I 'm sorry?THE CHAIRMAN: There ' s only one work

l i s t ?THE WITNESS: Yes. When we ge t down

to , the re ' s a Jav i t s list, o r - - bu t whenwe say, we c a l l i n to the Di s t r i c t Council ,to be on the genera l list.

THE CHAIRMAN: General Carpente rs 'work list.

THE WITNESS: Yes. And t h a t was j u s tsomething t h a t came ou t as the l a s tperson ' s tes t imony. I came up with aquestion . In a p erio d of d i f f i cu l ty with


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accusa t ions and i nve s t i ga t i ons , it doesbr ing my mind back to the l a s t t ime wewent through a bumpy road l i ke t h i s and wewere spec i f i ca l ly to ld when our welfa refund was deple ted and misadminis tered t h a tthe re was $34 mil l ion miss ing and we wereassessed a ce r t a in percen tage o f our workhours and t h a t assessment was to make'upt ha t s ho rt fa ll .

At the t ime, they d id a littleformula fo r us and they showed us thenumber o f working ca rpen te rs , the averagenumber hours worked t imes the assessment ,and how much they an t i c ipa ted would bera i sed by the assessment . And thepro jec t ion was, we would have t h i sassessment on our pay fo r two year s .Somebody t o ld me now it's e igh t , nineyear s .

So how do you ge t $34 mil l ion in nineyears o f t h i s assessment? Can you lookin , when they say , you know, show me themoney, money i s going to be commingled,and - - it goes through accountants


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460. Testimony - John Maggi

could you look a t the vote , the proposa lt h a t passed the assessment , what was itsupposed to apply to , how much wassupposed to be made up, and how much.havethey ra i sed under o ur a ss es sm e nt s incethen?

My - - my ink l ing i s t h a t we overpaidwhat was supposed to be pa id o f f byt en- fo ld .

THE CHAIRMAN: Well , theVice-Pres iden t wh o i s superv i s ing , FrankSpencer , i s in back o f the room. I 'm surehe hears what you ' re saying, wi l l lookin to it.

THE WITNESS: Okay, thank you verymuch.

THE CHAIRMAN: Now, fo r your bene f i tand maybe the r e s t of these fo lks , becausewe have a little b i t o f t ime, we usua l lydon ' t do t h i s , I was on the h ea rin g p an elback in the '90s when we had a l l o f thecorrupt ion h ea ri ng c ou n cil . It kind o famazed me t h a t I s a t here fo r th reed i f f e ren t sess ions , th ree days, and had


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people s t and up and t e l l us t h a t , youknow, we, the In t e rna t i ona l were theAnt i ch r i s t because we were coming in andwant ing to remove Fred Devine and h is bando f th ieves from the Dis t r i c t Counci l .

And the reason t h a t they sa id t h a t inmost cases was because Fred Devine , whene l e c t i on came around, gave c rad le - to -dea thh ea lth c are benef i t s , second, t h i rd , ex t r ap en si on c he ck s, a rb i t r a r i l y r a i s ed pens ionbenef i t s , moved money from the pens ionplan i l l ega l l y in to the hea l thca re plan toshore it up so he could ge t through thee l e c t i on cyc le ; had 350 people on abene f i t s pay ro l l t h a t was running th ebenef i t s department when only about 70were needed; kept GO-something car s in thebene f i t p lan , le as in g fo r 1,800 a month, aLincoln Town Car fo r 2,800 a month. Wewere the Ant i ch r i s t .

When we go t in to here , because o f a l lof t h a t misgiving and a l l th e c orru ptio nt h a t had taken p l ace , your pens ion planhad a de f i c i t o f $500 mil l ion . But we


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were the bad guys. We were the bad guys.THE WITNESS: Si r , if I could , you

took my ques t ion and s t a r t ed to answer.At t h a t po in t in your r ep ly , you d i dn ' t

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hear me throw any accusa t ions towardsd i dn ' t even ment ion Mr. Devine ' s namethe board - -

THE CHAIRMAN: I unders tand.THE WITNESS: Even the cu r r en t

t roub les , I 'm not a judge - -THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, bu t h e r e ' s my

po in t . The 34 mil l ion , I have no ideawhat t h a t assessment was about . But a tthe t ime t h a t somebody implemented

I

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something to cover a $34 mil l ion de f i c i t ,my po in t , ge t t ing back to it - -

THE WITNESS: It was more thanTHE CHAIRMAN: It was f ive hundred

mil l ion . Now, I can ' t - - I don ' t sit onthe p en sio n b oa rd here . I don ' t know whatyour funding i s s ue s a re . I don ' t know,you know, eve rybody t ook a h i t in the l a s tcouple of y ea rs , because of the s tockmarket , and everybody' s i nvo lved in the


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s t o c k market and you have t o b e b ec au seyou have a f i d u c i a r y r e s p o n s ib i 1 i t y t omaximize your income on t h e p e n s i o n , ont h e pension funds o f t h e I n t e r n a t i o n a 1 .But I unders tand a11 o f t h i s .

But I ' m j u s t saying t h a t we wi11 havesomeone 100k i n t o t h a t . But 34 mi11ionwou1d have been nothing compared t o whereyou were a t i n t h e 1 a t e ' 9 0 s . Where

11

12y o u ' r e a t today, I c a n ' t answer t h a t .

THE WITNESS: Thank you f o r t h a t.

13 exp1anat ion. Here h e r e ' s my p o i n t . I f14151617

our pension fund, you know, thanks t o t h e1 a s t o v e r s i g h t committee, s t a r t e dr e g e n e r a t i n g and s t a r t e d g e t t i n g hea1thy,thank you. But we have t o watch sometimes

18 when you t a k e from when one t a k e s from19202122232425

t h e p o c k e t , one t a k e s from t h a t p o c k e t ;when one a s s es se s h e r e, we now have asecond assessment .

So I ' m r e f e r r i n g s p e c i f i c a 1 1 y , j u s tbecause o f t h e way it was p h r a s e d a t t h et ime, and maybe I ' m wrong - - thanks f o rt e 1 1 i n g me about t h e f i v e hundred


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mil l ion - - a t the t ime, we were t o ld wewere going to be assessed fo r severa lyears to make up the 34 mil l ion t h a t wasmissing from the genera l welfare. So I 'mlooking fo r , maybe an excuse to i n i t i a t esomething, money s t a r t s flowing and thenpeople fo rge t why it s t a r t ed flowing.

THE CHAIRMAN: You can ask FrankTHE WITNESS: It's still flowingTHE CHAIRMAN: supervisor and you

probably w il l ge t the answer.THE WITNESS: I 'd l ike to have theTHE CHAIRMAN: Okay, thank you.

Terrence Samson? Ter re nc e h er e?16 T E R R E N C E SAM SON , having been duly171819202122232425

sworn, t e s t i f i ed as fo l lows:THE CHAIRMAN: Good morning,

Terrence.THE WITNESS: Good morning.THE CHAIRMAN: What Local are you

from?THE WITNESS: Local 608.THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead, Terrence,

where your test imony.


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465Testimony - Terrence SamsonTHE WITNESS: The s i t ua t i on i s t h a t I

would l i k e them to do away with th e shops t eward commit tee and the r egu l a rcommittee t h a t runs underneath th eDi s t r i c t Counci l . However, t he re was al o t o f r a c i a l s t u f f t h a t i s going onbetween th e commit tee , s t a r t i ng up withSco t t Ande rson , Maur ic e Leary , Rober tSeeger , John Hol t , and th e other s who a rep a r t of t h i s committee.

Evident ly , t hey fa l se ly accused mebecause I spoke ou t on an i s sue and I f e e lI was b l a ck l i s t e d , and when I t r i e d tospeak abou t th e j u s t i c e , t hey th ink I 'm ar eb el ro use r. So a pp ar en tly , t he se guyshave it ou t fo r me. They d id no t onlysuspend me once, t hey d id it tw ic e b ec au seI made a motion and t o ld what they can doand cannot do, t hey sa id I 'm ac t ing l i k eI 'm my own lawyer and th ey sh ou ld al low aperson to br ing t h e i r own test imony andt h e i r a t t o rney , which I haven ' t seensomeone has to be someone on the ca rpe tbecause when these i nd iv idua l s who do g e t


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466Testimony - Terrence Samson

themselves i n t r o u b l e and p robl ems w i t ht h e law, t h e y a r e al lowed t o g e t ana t t o r n e y on t h e o u t s i d e .

I b e l i e v e t h a t e v e r y c a r p e n t e r membershould have c a r t e b l a n c h e t o have ana t t o r n e y p r e s e n t when t h e s e meet ings a r eb e i n g t a k e n p l a c e . However, so t h e y canu n d e r s t a n d e x a c t l y how t h e s e r u le s a r eo f f i c i a t e d , how t h e s e r u l e s g o t h e r e , andb a s i c a l l y w i t h S c o t t Anderson b a r r i c a d i n gw i t h him and h i s committee and MauriceLeary and o p e r a t i o n , I f e e l t h a t t h e y a r ea l l o f crooked and I f e e l t h e y all s h o u l dhave n o t only an i n v e s t i g a t i o n , b u tMaurice Leary a l s o t o l d me t h a t t h e dayt h a t t h e committee had c o n v i c t e d me o fwrongdoing, t h a t t h e y a l l were t w i s t e d .

So j u s t t o show you t h a t t h e t r u t h i so u t t h e r e , it's i n t h e newspaper , we a l s oknow t h a t Michael F orde and whoever t h a t ' sundernea th him needs t o be s c r u t i n i z e dundernea th t h e microscope more p r o b a b l y .

THE CHAIRMAN: T h a t ' s your te stimony ?THE WITNESS: T h a t ' s my t e s t i m o n y .



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467Testimony - Robert MakowskiTHE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.(Applause. )THE CHAIRMAN: We're g oin g to take

about a t en -m inu te b reak. Anybody e l s et h a t wishes to t e s t i f y in t h i s morning 'ssess ion please do so by s igning upout s ide .

(Recess t aken. )THE CHAIRMAN: All r i gh t , gentlemen,

please take your se a t s . Robert Makowski?THE WITNESS: I 'm al ready sworn in .

13 R O B E R T M A K O W S K I , having been141516171819202122232425

previously sw orn, resum ed and t e s t i f i e dfu r the r as fo l lows:

THE WITNESS: Robert Makowski, Local157. I j u s t want to pu t across the po in tt h a t I saw th i s morning, an d t h i s mightlead to some reason why the supervis ionshould be cont inued, o r un t i l i t s purposei s f u l f i l l e d .

I was wai t ing ups ta i r s to come downth i s morning. And t he re were a bunch ofcarpenters se t t i ng up fo r a t rade show.They took the i r break , and they were


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468Testimony - Robert Makowski

walking p a s t t h e e nt r a nc e t o t h i s meeting,they saw t h e s i g n s and they were p o i n t i n ga t it laughing. I c o u l d n ' t unders tandwhy. So I went over t o them and I askedthem. I s a i d , "You guys i n t e r e s t e d inw h a t ' s going on downstairs?" And t h e y a l llaughed a g a i n . And they s a i d , "No, n o tr e a l l y . "

And t h a t ' s it. T h a t ' s t h e s t a t e m e n tI want t o make t h i s morning. T h a t ' s it.Thank you.

THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.(Applause. )THE CHAIRMAN: Anthony Garcia, you

s a i d you wanted t o augment you r te stimony?17 A N T H O N Y GARCIA, h av in g b ee n1819202122232425

p r e v i o u s l y sworn, r es umed and t e s t i f i e df u r t h e r as fo llows :

THE CHAIRMAN: Want t o t a k e t h e capo f f , p l e a s e . Go ahead, you werep r e v i o u s l y sworn in . You 'r e u nd er o a t h .

THE WITNESS: Well , I j u s t want t osay t h a t , you know, somebody was t o my,you know, t o my unders tanding, somebody


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was running aga ins t - - aga ins t the EST,bu t he wasn ' t put on the ba l l o t because Iguess he was d i sq u a li fi ed f or some reason.But, you know, I j u s t want to make t h a tknown fo r th e re co rd .

THE CHAIRMAN: Do you know why he wasdisqua l i f i ed? Had he no t met the termsand condi t ions of the UBC Cons t i tu t ion ,meaning t h a t he was a member fo r a Localfo r a year , o r - -

THE WITNESS: I don ' t know.THE CHAIRMAN: I don ' t , e i the r . I

wa sn 't h ere . But I can assure you t h a t ifsomebody was di squa l i f i ed , it was becausehe d i dn ' t meet the qua l i f i ca t ions underthe cu r re n t Con s ti tu ti o n.

THE WITNESS: Yes.THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, thank you. I s

t h a t i t ?THE WITNESS: Um, and, you know, the

Union should - - th i s i s - - wel l , I want tof ind ou t what ' s going on with the - - with ,you know, as f a r a s , uh, you know, i severybody going to be taken out of the


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Di s t r i c t Council?THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Everybody t h a t

was an o f f i ce r of the Di s t r i c t Counci l hasbeen removed as an o f f i ce r of the Di s t r i c tCounci l by Frank Spencer, Vice-Pres idento f the Eas te rn Di s t r i c t , supervisor of theDi s t r i c t Counci l . They have a l l beenremoved. They a re not holding o f f i c e .

THE WITNESS: So, wel l , why a re theyt h e re , or why a re they here , o r , you know,why

(Continued on f ol low ing page.)


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471Testimony - Anthony GarciaTHE CHAIRMAN: Now, h o l d i n g an o f f i c e

and being a r e p r e s e n t a t i v e a r e twod i f f e r e n t s u b j e c t m a t t e r s . You're n o te l e c t e d as a r e p r e s e n t a t i v e . FrankSpencer i s r e s p o n s i b l e f o r running t h ea f f a i r s o f t h e Counci l be and h i r i n g s t a f ff o r run t h e a f f a i r s o f t h e Counci l , andt h a t ' s h i s c a l l . But i n terms o f someoneholding o f f i c e a t t h e D i s t r i c t Counci l ,Frank Spencer , t h e P r e s i d e n t ,V i c e - P r e s i d e n t , s e c r e t a r y , e v e r y t h i n g .

THE WITNESS: A l l r i g h t , thank you.THE CHAIRMAN: You're welcome.

Anybody e l s e wish t o g i v e tes t imony a tt h i s morning s e s s i o n ?

We're g oin g t o adjourn and we w i l lreconvene a s p e r t h e n o t i c e a t one p.m.Thank you.

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(Recess taken: 9:54 a.m.)


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(1:00 p.m.)THE CHAIRMAN: I f everybody wi l l come

in , w e 'l l g et th e hear ing s t a r t ed .For those o f you who were no t p re s en t

a t the morning se ss io n, o r yes te rday ' ssess ion , I want to in tr od uc e th e pane l .To my l e f t , Bob Yeggy, Vice-Pres iden t o fth e Midwest Dis t r i c t . To my r i gh t , DanMaples who i s In t e rna t i ona l Vice -Pre s iden tfo r the Southern Dis t r i c t . My name i s

13 Michael Draper . I 'm th e chairman o f t h i s141516171819202122232425

commit te e a nd I 'm V i ce -P r es id e nt fo r th eWestern Dis t r i c t .

A few simple ru l e s . I f your name i sca l l ed , you s igned up to t e s t i f y , come upto the cou r t r epo r t e r , give him your name,your Local Union number , have a s e a t overt he r e , and remove your ha t s , turn o f f a l lyour ce l lphones , and you ' l l give yourtes t imony.

We're here today to ta ke in fo rm a ti onand tes t imony from th e membership,pr imar i ly in r e l a t i onsh ip to th e l e t t e r



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Proceedingst h a t you a l l rece ived from the GeneralPres iden t regarding the a f f a i r s of th i sCounci l . We're no t here in aquest ion-and-answer per iod. We're here toga ther informat ion and tes t imony so t h a twe can make a decis ion on th e g en eralexecut ive board as to whether thesupervis ion of the New York City Di s t r i c tCouncil o f Ca rp en te rs s houl d cont inue .

With t h a t , I 'm going to c a l l thef i r s t person up to the m ic, M ich aelMarshak? Michael here? No? JohnCavel l i? John, do you want to come overand ge t sworn in , please? Sorry if Id i dn ' t pronounce your name r igh t .

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17 J 0 H N C A V EL L I , having been duly18 sworn, t e s t i f i e d as fo l lows:19202122232425

THE WITNESS: Good af ternoon,Brothers and Si s t e r s , da is . My name i sJohn Cavel l i . I 'm a former Unionorgan ize r , bus iness agen t of Local 1536,the Denis Shie l Local . Used to be t h a tLocal was, you know, dying slowly, eachguy had h is own Local , God bless him.


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474Proceedings

I loved my job a t D i s t r i c t Counci l , Ikind o f g o t pushed o u t . A l o t o f problemson D i s t r i c t Counci l and I b e l i e v e t h a ts u p e r v i s i o n should s t a y . Brother McCarronp u t us on a b a t h from '95 on t o t r y andg e t r i d o f nepot ism and c rony ism. Thep l a c e i s b l a t a n t . T h e r e 's n o t a Local ,you know, g e t t i n g what y o u ' r e supposed t og e t . It w i l l h e l p t h e g e n e r a l membership.A g o t o f guys t h i n k t h a t they a r e owedt h i s j o b . When I was t h e r e , I worked f o rt h e members.

The nepotism runs deep. I f yourf a t h e r g e t s you a j o b , a l o t o f Union guysgrew up, a l o t o f guys h e r e , o l d - t i m emembers, t h i s was a f a t h e r - a n d - s o n Union.You went t o work with your dad, you wentt o work and you made him proud.

20 These guys g e t a j o b , t h i s they2122232425

a r e n o t making us proud . They a r e makingt h e i r funds on t h e members' backs. I comefrom a t h r e e -d a y o r g a n i zi n g t r a i n i n g . Ihave no p e d i g r e e h e r e . I ' m a woodb u t c h e r . My f a t h e r was a cop. So I have


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475Testimony - John C a v e l l i

no hook h e r e . I earned my s p o t . A l o t o fguys j u s t g o t t h e i r s p o t , and t h a t ' swrong. T h e r e ' s a l o t t h a t ' s wrong h e r e .Brother McCarron spoke about change i n1995. He moved me. When I went t o t h a troom f o r t h a t t h r e e - d a y , I was a g a i n s t aWho's Who o f a l l t h e Locals , and I thoughtI was going t o be o u t .

You know what? I d i d my b e s t and Iwon my s p o t , I earned my s p o t . T h e r e ' s al o t o f guys i n t h i s room t h a t deserve t h a ts p o t b u t they g o t p l a c e d over . I wasp l a c e d over when I worked f o r D i s t r i c tCounci l . I was always an o u t s i d e r fromw i t h i n . You g o t a problem with t h ec o a l i t i o n , c a l l Johnny.

THE CHAIRMAN: Slow down so he cang e t e v e r y t h i n g .

THE WITNESS: I apologize . I ' mh e a t e d . Brother McCarron spoke aboutchange, and I was a l l f o r t h a t . I changeda l o t o f guys ' l i v e s . I organizedcompanies, brought guys i n t o t h i s f o l d .But t h i s D i s t r ic t Counci l , they d i d n ' t


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476Testimony - John Cave l l i

change on me. They changed my l i f e fo rthe worse nine months ago, kicked me out .I 'm no t here fo r my job back. Tha t ' s a l lnew, bu t it's wrong when they can j u s tpick and choose wh o passes and wh o f a i l s .You have guys breaking laws and they havea job . Guys no t breaking laws g e t f i r ed .You don ' t ag ree w ith them, you g e t f i red .I had a problem, back f ive years ofpersecut ion from th is D i st r ic t Counci l . Ibrough t it to the top and I was t o ld ,"It's po l i t i c a l , we don ' t ge t involvedwith po l i t i c a l maneuvers ." It's wrong.As a Union represen ta t ive , I represen tthese guys and g i r l s . I fought fo r them.

THE CHAIRMAN: Slow down a littleb i t .

THE WITNESS: I apologize , s i r . Ifought fo r these guys and g i r l s whenever Icould . When I had a b ee f w ith in myDi s t r i c t Counci l , I had no represen ta t ion .I f I went to someone, I was t o ld I wentout s ide the chain of command, how can youhave a chain of command when the next


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chain i s a guy looking to hammer you? Howcan you go to the next l i nk? You can ' t .You have to go around.

So t h e re ' s a l o t of t h a t has to bechangad in t h i s Di s t r i c t Counci l , wipe thes l a te clean. Keap the In t e rna t i ona l here .Do I th ink the In te rna t iona l was per fec t?No. They we re n't th e holy g ra i l , bu t a tl e a s t they were ten guys, f ive guys whowere ind i f fe ren t . Ten guys - - from thet eacher fe l lows t h a t I passed a methodt h a t you want to pu t in p lace to p lay withthe se a t s , to grow th is D i st r ic t Counci l .And then you have guys wh o they j u s t pu tin? Tha t ' s a s lap in the face everyt ea ch in g f el low wh o s ig ne d th e form of aguy wh o passed th e th re e-d ay . When yousend a couple of your guys to another c i tyo r s t a t e to make sure you - -

THE CHAIRMAN: Slow down.THE WITNESS: - - again I apologize

s i r , I 'm a little hea ted .THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, ju s t th ink abou t

it, slow down.


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THE WITNESS: A l l r i g h t . So t h e r e ' s3 a l o t wrong h e r e . It's g o t t o be changed,456789

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it's g o t t o be changed from t h e t o p . Youlook - - t h i s i s embarrass ing. We have 60Brothers and S i s t e r s h e r e , why? Becausew e ' r e on Eleventh Avenue. We have aD i s t r i c t Council t h a t has e i g h t subwayt r a i n s t h a t can g e t you t h e r e .

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making h a l f my pay. It's going t o c o s t meover a hundred d o l l a r s , I parked my t r u c kt h i s morning. I d i d n ' t l e a v e . So amember who's o u t o f work, o r workin g on eo r two days a week, c a n ' t a f f o r d t o park ahundred d o l l a r s h e r e . I c a n ' t a f f o r d ite i t h e r , b u t t h i s i s t h e only chance I havet o speak my p i e c e , so I ' m going t o e a tt h a t money. I f we would have had t h i s a tD i s t r i c t Council , we would have about athousand guys and g i r l s o r more. We wouldhave had t h e o p t i o n t o have a v o i c e .

Why do we have e l e c t i o n s i n t h emiddle o f December when it's t h e most


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cold? Get the vo tes ou t. You want to seethe n um bers? G iv e them th e oppor tune t imeto g e t the re . It's not f a i r in th i sDi s t r i c t Council. You 're in o r y ou 'reou t. There 's no in between. They havet h e i r little fiefdoms. That was supposedto be over with in ' 95 .

I ' ve been on the out-of-work l i s t . fo rnine months. I hold th e same sk i l l s asevery shop s teward here . My CPR lapsed ,bu t I hold every sk i l l . I should be thenext s teward, o r temporary s teward, ac t ings teward. I h av en 't g ot a l l o f ninemonths. I have a wife and thee kids , amortgage l i k e everybody e l s e here . I 'mworking fo r ha l f my pay as a p ro j e c tmanager. Why? This month, I ' ve been 18years in th e Union and it took me 7 yearsto make it up from th e bui ld ing . I didit. I earned it. How a re these guyssupposed to earn i t ? They don ' t have achance. They need to ge t th e chance.

Le t ' s be led my Carpenter , r ea lCarpenters , not o f f th e backs o f th e


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membership. Okay? I f you commit a cr ime,34

you 've g o t t o go. D o n ' t cover it up.g o t f i r e d , pushed o u t , withdrawn, f o r

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p o i n t I ' m saying, P e t e . It's, y o u ' r e i n ,y o u 'r e o u t . I l i k e you, I d o n 't l i k e you.T h a t ' s wrong. T h a t ' s n o t how McCarronplanned t h i s . I d o n ' t t h i n k he planned itt h a t way.

I r e a l l y have a l o t t o s a y , a l o t t og e t o f f my c h e s t . It's wrong. How i s itt h a t o r g a n i z e r s , when you go t o yourD i s t r i c t Counci l , y o u ' r e t o l d - - t or e p l e n i s h your p ic k e t s i g n s , y o u 'r e t o l d ,"Get o u t o f h e r e , I d o n ' t want t o see youup here"? T h a t ' s our h e a d q u a r t e r s . We'resupposed t o be t h e r e . We're n o t hangingo u t .

THE CHAIRMAN: Slow down.THE WITNESS: Sorry. I ' m n o t hanging

o u t . I ' m n o t p a r t o f a c o f f e r k l a t c h .When I come i n h e r e t o g e t what I need andt o go, y o u ' r e supposed t o be welcomed i n


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your D i s t r i c t Counci l . Most guys a r e n o t .I remember t h e f i r s t seven h i r e d . T h e r e ' sno p e d i g r e e h e r e . I ' m a r e g u l a r guy. Ther e g u l a r guys deserve a j o b , t o o . Theydeserve t o work 40 hours a week when it'st h e r e , n o t guys double-dipping, working 40hours f o r one company, and they g e t s e n tt o a job on t h e weekend. You know what?I f everybody's working, if somebody doubled i p s , a t l e a s t everybody 's working.

But when t h e r e ' s 200 guys o u t i n ab i g c a r p e n t e r Local o r a hundred guys o u ti n a s p e c i a l Local l i k e me, no one shouldbe double-dipping. L e t him come t o myhouse and answer t h e phone from Chase o rfrom Visa , a l l r i g h t ? I h a v e n ' t had aCarpenter paycheck s i n c e March. T h a t ' s

19 wrong. I could do my job . I ' m a b i g guy.202122232425

I ' m f i t . I can s h e e t a h o l e , I can b u i l da h o i s t , I can climb a s c a f f o l d . I can doit today, I could do it tomorrow, I d i d itf i v e y e a r s ago.

I ' m n o t a f r a i d t o work. I need achance t o work. I c a n ' t be t o l d , "I 'm n o t



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going to hi re you." I have a wife andth re e k id s. I want to ea t . I don ' t wanta problem. I want to ea t . But it's wrongt h a t someone can knock me ou t of a job andthen punish my family. Tha t ' s what theyare doing. They are punishing my family .I d id nothing wrong to be punished tobegin with .

Okay, I love t h i s Brotherhood. Iworked day and nigh t , bu t they have toa t t ack cor rup t ion , I went. I 'm the guy a tn igh t in the bad neighborhoods 3 o 'c lockin the morning t ry ing to catch guysworking. But t hese guys

THE CHAIRMAN: Slow down.THE WITNESS: - - these guys don ' t do

tha t . They hide under secur i ty . Let themin , don ' t l e t them in . It's nonsense.Grievance, they l e t gr ievances go to - -they dea l them down. How do you dea l down

a grievance? I f you catch a cont rac to rand he owes you te n c arp en te rs per day,l e t him pay fo r the ten - - don ' t l e t hims e t t l e fo r a shop s teward. Make him pay


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t e n c a rp e n t er s . Let t e n days ' pay - -THE CHAIRMAN: You've g o t t o slow

down.THE WITNESS: S i r , I a p o l o g i z e .THE CHAIRMAN: D o n ' t a p o l o g i z e , slow

down, because t h e r e ' s a c o u r t r e p o r t e rt r y i n g t o keep up with e v e r y t h i n g .

Address your comments up h e r e .THE WITNESS: I a p o l o g i z e , s i r . I

have a l o t o f people i n t h e D i s t r i c tCounci l t h a t I c a l l e d my f r i e n d s , c l e a r l yw e r e n ' t . As I s a i d b e f o r e , I d i d n ' t doanything wrong I would h e l p anybody i na n y t h i n g , anyone. I was t o l d , "Why a r eyou doing t h i s , why a r e you doing t h a t ,why a r e you organiz ing? Why a r e you goinga f t e r t h a t company?" When I was ab u s in e s s a ge nt .

How do you t e l l someone why y o u ' r eo r g a n i z i n g a company t h a t ' s d oin g y ou rwork? T h a t ' s e a t i n g your lunch? How doyou t e l l someone why y o u ' r e doing t h a t ?

You should say, "Go g e t them. Go g e tthem." Not s t o p . "Why a r e you b r i n g i n g


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Testimony - John C a v e l l it h e s e guys in?" We need them, they a r edoing t h e work. Bring them i n . I r e a l l yd o n ' t want t o b e r ed un da nt. I have a l o tt o say, b u t you know what? Other guyswant t o t a l k . I r e a l l y a p p r e c i a t e yourt ime. It's my p r e s e n t a t i o n t h a t you keept h e supervision and clean house.

THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you f o r yourtest imony.

THE WITNESS: You know what - - Iw i l l - -

(Applause. )THE CHAIRMAN: Danie l Franco?

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15 D A N I ELF R A N C O , having been duly16 sworn, t e s t i f i e d as fol lows:171819202122232425

THE CHAIRMAN: Daniel , goodaf te rnoon.

THE WITNESS: Yes.THE CHAIRMAN: What Local a r e you

from?THE WITNESS: Local 157.THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead and give your

test imony.THE WITNESS: For weeks I ' v e been


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485Testimony - Daniel Franco

t h i n k i n g about what I wanted t o say h e r edur ing t h e h e a r i n g . And assemblingw r i t t e n tes t imony, dozens o f pages longt h a t - -

THE CHAIRMAN: A l l r i g h t , now, Ic a n ' t h e a r you, g o t a g e t a little c l o s e r .Now, eve ry body k eep in mind, you have t ot a l k somewhat c o n s t a n t , n o t - - it's veryd i f f i c u l t f o r t h i s c o u r t r e p o r t e r t o keepup

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