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Gummos Whammoby Werner Herzog

Interview / November 1999

Harmony Korine's directorial debut isthe fall film most likely to disturb anddisgust the most people. Here Korinetalks to one of his newest fans, fellowmoviemaker and rule-breaker WernerHerzog

If Harmony Korine's screenplay for1995's Kids announced the arrival of ashockingly precocious observer ofteenage wasteland, his first film as adirector not only confirms hisprecocity but establishes him as bothauteur and unrepentant nihilist. Thenonnarrative, super-squalid Gummo -cryptically named for the absentmember of Korine's beloved MarxBrothers - is a biliously Burroughsiansnapshot of post-twister 1974 Xenia,Ohio, depicted as the kind of hellholethat makes the Manhattan ofKidsseem like Disneyland. Actually filmedin and around Korine's hometown ofNashville, Tenn., this fiercely anti-Hollywood "genre fuck," as Korine

calls it, offers a scornful parade ofsurrealist images that posit the giftedtyro as a brave new Godardian,though one who has something tolearn about telling (or not telling) astory.

Korine numbers among his influencesthe obsessive German filmmakerWerner Herzog, who interviewed himin front of an audience at the recentTelluride Film Festival. The followingwas adapted from their conversation.

Werner Herzog: When I met you forthe first time, Harmony, I was stunnedbecause you have a strong physicalresemblance to me when I was yourage. I had a great problem getting astart in filmmaking because mypuberty came late, and until I wassixteen or so, I looked like a veryawkward child... although I think it'sthe hunchbacks who make themovies. Did you have a similarexperience?

Harmony Korine: My mind was veryfast, but I looked like a little boy until Iwas sixteen, too. I grew up inTennessee, but I didn't want to livethere, and when I got out of high

school I flew to New York City to livewith my grandmother. I was takingphotos in a park one day when I metLarry Clark. We started talking aboutfilms, and I wrote a screenplay [Kids]for him. I then went to California tomeet agents, and met Cary Woods,who became my producer. I wassmaller then, and must have seemedchildlike. He probably thought Istepped off a school bus orsomething, because at first he didn'tbelieve it was me.

Herzog: Tell me about yourupbringing.

Korine: If someone asked me whatmy father did, I wouldn't be able toanswer. He would leave for longperiods of time, and sometimes mymother would disappear too. It's notthat they weren't good; they were justdoing something else and I didn'tknow where they were. But I liked

them when I saw them, and when myfather came home he'd bring moneyand presents, so that was nice. Irecently asked my dad what hisprofession was, and he wouldn't tellme. There were other things I didn'tknow, so I asked my mother to sendmy birth certificate to me so I couldfind out my real age and make sureeverything was legitimate. I got it amonth and a half ago and it said myfather's occupation was fur trader, butI've never seen him wear fur or heard

him talk about it. Maybe he'sembarrassed by it, I don't know.Anyway, my parents let me dowhatever I wanted, and I was mostlyoff on my own.

Herzog: What was the first movie yousaw?

Korine: I think it was Harry & Tonto[1974]. My father told me I flipped outabout something that happened to thecat in it. The first movies that really

changed my life were yours,

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Fassbinder's, Godard's, and [CharlesLaughton's] The Night Of The Hunter[1955]. My father loved the movies.We didn't talk much when he wasaround, but every day after school,

when I guess most kids would gohome and do their homework, we'd goto the movies. By the time I wassixteen, I was seeing three or fourfilms a day, including a lot of art films.I saw all your films. My dad rentedthem for me at first, and then he tookme to the theatre to see Even DwarfsStarted Small [1968] - which is myfavourite movie of all time. It waswhen I heard the girl screaming in thecave and saw the monkey beingcrucified in that film that I knew I

wanted to make movies.

Herzog: It's obvious to me that younever attended film school.

Korine: I hate that shit. It's eating thesoul of cinema. Filmmaking hasbecome like a process, and it's allgarbage. All these rich kids who weregoing to be doctors now want to befilmmakers, but they have very littlelife experience and they're just writing

really shitty wit for each other. That'sperfect for when they go to Hollywoodand meet the people who financefilms, 'cause those guys are fucked uptoo. That's why films are the way theyare now and why I've largely stoppedgoing to see them in the last twoyears.

Herzog: I know you've expressedsome desire to get away from writingscreenplays, but you have alwaysbeen a writer?

Korine: I've never wanted to tellother people's stories. I'd readbooks,and there'd be things in them Icould relate to, but it still wasn't mystory, so I figured the only way for meto talk about my life and adventureswas to write. Writing's a great thing. Ieven have a novel that's going tocome out next April calledA CrackupAt The Race Riots. I want to doeverything: It goes back to [Charlesand Ray] Eames [architects,

designers, filmmakers] and [Isamu]

Noguchi [sculptor] talking about aunified aesthetic. You can makemovies, write books, do a ballet, andsing opera, but it's all part of the samevision.

Herzog: I see Gummo as a truescience fiction film in the way it showsa scary vision of the future: a loss ofsoul, a loss of spirituality. And yet youclearly see all that with very tendereyes. I am very interested, too, in howyou show the effects of a tornado onpeople.

Korine: When I look at the history offilm - the early commercial narrativemovies directed by D.W. Griffith, say -

and then look at where films are now,I see so little progression in the waythey are made and presented,and I'mbored with that. Film can be so muchmore. With Gummo I wanted to createa new viewing experience with imagescoming from all directions. To freemyself up to do that, I had to createsome kind of scenario that wouldallow me to just show scenes, which isall I care about. I can't stand plots,because I don't feel life has plots.

There is no beginning, middle, or end,and it upsets me when things are tiedup so perfectly. There had been atornado in Xenia in 1974, and Idecided to set the film there. After thetornado, people found dogs up intrees and playing cards that had beenblown through brick walls. I heardabout this one guy on a paper routewho was sucked up by the twister anddropped off, still on his bicycle, fiftymiles away, and the only injury he hadwas a scratch on his forehead.

Herzog: You use the tornado in yourfilm to shatter the narrative form. Allyour screenplays - not only Gummo -follow that same lack of pattern.There is no story line, no developmentof characters. Everybody in Hollywoodwould immediately ask, "Where's thedevelopment? Where's the good guyand the bad guy?" You are obstinateabout that.

Korine: I guess I'm lucky, too,

because I've been protected by my

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producer and my agents so far. Theyunderstand that I don't want any kindof relationship with that other world.Early on I said I was going to make aspecific kind of film and if I couldn't do

that, or if I had to soften my vision,then I would just quit. There's nothingwrong with quitting if you can't do thekind of work you want to do. What'samazing is that I got to make Gummoas a pure vision and that it wasn'ttouched - especially since I'm youngand it's a new aesthetic. In a way,it's amiracle that this movie exists in thecurrent climate.

Herzog: What I like about Gummo arethe details that one might not notice

at first. There's the scene where thekid in the bathtub drops his chocolatebar into the dirty water and justbehind him there's a piece of friedbacon stuck to the wall with Scotchtape. This is the entertainment of thefuture.

Korine: It's the greatestentertainment. Seriously, all I want tosee is pieces of fried bacon taped onwalls, because most films just don't do

that.

Herzog: Tell me about creating asense of dirt in the film. Thosepeople's homes are like garbagedumps.

Korine: I grew up in Nashville, so Iknew the neighbourhoods. Certainhouses were just the worst peoplewere living like pack rats. In one of thehouses, I found a piece of a guy'sshoulder in a pillowcase. As far as

production design went, it was abouttaking things away to make it cleaner.At times the crew would refuse to filmin those conditions. We had to buythem those white suits like peoplewear in a nuclear fallout. I got angrywith them because I thought theywere pussies. I mean, all we're talkingabout is bugs and a disgusting rottingsmell. I couldn't understand why theyhad no guts. I was like, "Think aboutwhat we have access to,"but I guessmost of them didn't really give a shit.

But Jean Yves [Escoffier], the

cinematographer, was fearless. Whenthe others were wearing their toxicoutfits, he and I wore Speedos andflip-flops just to piss them off.

Herzog: When one of the kids in thefilm moves a picture on a wall and allthese cockroaches come crawling out,the cameraman doesn't zoom in froma distance; he moves in physically,because he's interested. The firstcinematographer I worked with said tome, "Werner, don't use a long lens -just move in. Film knows no mercy."You have to be bold, you have to becurious.

Korine: I don't know how other

directors work, but I wanted to createa kind of ultra chaotic environmentwhere things were just happening,and then shoot them without thinkingabout it. The line producers told methe bond company was threatening totake the movie away at one pointbecause I was shooting too much film,but I said, "Leave me alone. The filmwe're shooting is the movie." JeanYves said to me late one night: "Fuckthese guys! We will fire everyone. It

will be me, you, a fucking lightbulb,and the soundman." That was sopunk. I was so charged by that; I felt Icouldn't lose.

Herzog: He has to be given credit,because in some scenes he was alone,wasn't he?

Korine: Oh yeah. He got one of themost amazing scenes on the last dayof shooting. It's where those guys arearm wrestling in a kitchen. I'd written

the scene, but some of the people in ithad just gotten out of prison that day,and I could feel that things were goingto happen that night that were waybeyond what I hoped for or imagined,but I knew they wouldn't happen if Iwas there watching them. So JeanYves and I agreed he'd be the onlyperson in the room with them. Werigged a boom onto his camera, and Ishut all the doors and turned all themonitors down, so even I didn't knowwhat was going on. I would just run in

between takes and get them really

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excited. I'd tell them to throw therefrigerator out the window or kick thedoor. It got really violent in there.There were pregnant women in theroom, too; it was scary.

Herzog: The moment I like most inthat scene is the moment of silencewhen nobody knows what to do next.That's not something that could bedirected.

Korine: When I saw that in thedailies, it amazed me, because JeanYves really captured thatawkwardness, that sad silence; it wasbeautiful. Most of the people in thatscene were parents of kids in the film,

so it worked out well.

Herzog: Can you talk about some ofthe kids?

Korine: When I go to the movies,there's usually nothing on the screenthat compels me, and with this film Iwanted to see people who wereamazing looking. I was watching anepisode ofSally Jesse Raphael called"My Child Died From Sniffing

Paint,"and I saw this kid on it namedNick [Sutton] who's a paint - sniffingsurvivor. They asked him, "Where areyou going to be in a few years?" andhe said, "I'll probably be dead." I lovedhim and wanted him to star in thefilm, so we tracked him down. He toldme he'd been on acid on the show.

Herzog: This is the older of the twoboys who go hunting for dead cats.What about the one whose hair getsshampooed by his mom [Linda Manz]?

Korine: Jacob Reynolds. I'd seen himin a small part in The Road to Wellville[1994], and he was also in a Dunkin'Donuts commercial I liked, so we casthim. He's got an amazing face. Mostof the others I'd grown up with orgone to high school with or knew fromhanging out.

Herzog: Who do you want theaudience for Gummo to be?

Korine: I never thought about that

while I was making it, but I feel it'sdefinitely most important if youngpeople see it, because it's anew kindof film with a new kind of syntax.Younger people have a different kind

of sensibility, and I think they'llunderstand it. But if someone saidthat I was the voice of my generation,I couldn't agree with that. I'm just thevoice of Harmony.