r II C'f.((3/r C t/

\. (' _~D. CASE No. SHJ, 2 /63

6th SEPTE~BER, 1963

THE STATE VERSUS HENRY OTGOTHI

CHARGE

BEFORE

LEAVING REPUBLIC WITHOUT A PASSPORT

MR. B. OLIVIER

FOR THE STATE : W. MARINUS

FOR THE DEFE CE ADV. D. SOGGOT

F. O. WALDECK

DIE HOF: 8ierdie saak is terug verwys na hierdie hof vir

doeleindes van vonnis deur 'n landdros anders as die landdros

wat die saak verhoor het. Dit het gebeur na bekragtiging

deur die Hooggeregshof van die bevinding. en na ter syde

stelling van die vonnis. Ek het die verrigting8 gelees

wat aanl iding gegee het tot die skuldigbevinding . Beide

die Staat en die Beskuldigde het die reg om enige getuienis

wat hulle wens aan te voer i.v.m. vonnis aan te voer.

DIE STAAT ROEP

PIET A AM COETZEE. v.o.e.

oon jy in Johannesburg? -- Johannesburg, ja.

Vir wie werk jy? -- Es op Suleman.

att~r werk doen jy? -- Drywer.

Wat dryf jy? -~ Volkswagen Combi.

Wat is jou werkgewers se besigheid? Pilot taxi.

Is jy bekend met di Afrxc n N tional Congress

organi asie? -- Ja, meneer.

Hoe het jy bekend geword daarmee? -- Deur ek hulle

rYe

Kan 1y vir ons verduidelik wat jy daarby bedoel -

dat jy vir hulle ry? ~- Ja, omdat ek hulle uit ry verga-

derings toe, Lobatsi toe, uit gaan na enige meeting at hull

iewers gaan.

Hoelank het jy al nou persone van die A.N.C. verv~ r?

'n H~ le paar maal.

Waarheen het jy hulle oral geneem? -~ Na verga, e

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•

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het hu11e na meetings toe gevat,. Durban,' S azi1and " Lobatsi

en Johanne burg.

Ho het jy hulle na Lobatsi toe geneem? -'- · Lobatsi

ek het hu11e gevat, deur a1 van dinges, Lob t i toe en van

Lobatsi af dan gaan hulle verder. ( Dan gaan hulle as, dan gaan

~~Ulle verder uit as soldate. ----------

~ Neem jy hu1le in daardie geval net tot op Loba i? Net tot op die borders, van Lobatsi, oor die

Republic.

Hoeveel keer het jy persone van die A.N.C. geneem

tot by die gren van Bechuanaland?- Hele paar maa1.

j aar Junie af.

Van :l.aas

· Het j y enige persone geneem vir die A. • C. F bruarie

1963? .... Ja.

Hoeveel persone het jy toe geneem? -- 37.

Waar vandaan het jy hulle vervoer? .~ Van 50hannes-

burg af.

Vanaf watter plek in Johannesburg? .'- Van Marabi

garage af, na Mkuzi.

di locations.

Maraba gar ge tot op die hoek, na

· Ie die posisie dan dat jy hu1le by verskeie plekke

. Verskeie plekke opgetel.

· Het jy 'n gids gehad op hierdie rit/~an8f Johannesburg

na die grens? ~- ' G'n

'n Guid ? . Guide, j a, ek het 'n guide gehad.

ie was die guide? .- Dit as Mbata en Joe odise.

. Wie is daardie persone? Dit is twee leieiers

ook van die A.N.C. . Die en bat~ is so te sa di kaptein,

want hy vat hul1e in.

ie is die kaptein? -- ate. Hy i J oe Modise is een van die organisers .

LAER: aarmee het hu11e die betrokke ge1eentheid

gery? Hu11e het met 'n kar gery, '0 priv at ka •

ee is die 37 persone vervoer? -- In die Combi.

3. I ...

..

.. 3 ..

Hoeveel? Drie Combis.

ie et jou opdrag gegee om hierdie rit te onderne m?

Essop •

. Hoel at het jy die mense opgelaai?

beg1nne laai van half past even tot agtuur.

· In d' e aand of die oggend? -- Die sand.

Ek het hulle

Was tiit Bantbemans gewee? -~ Bantoemans.

Wee~ jy of die beskuldigde onder hulle a? .. ~

· Beskuldigde was t n ptl~sasier.

Hoe het jU[e toe gery? .. ~ Dns het deur van Namkuzi

af, toe weer van M ube af toe op Lale i, en van Laledi af tot

op Roge~s gaan ons deur Roodepoort toe.

Julle het tot anderkant Zeerust gery? Tot anderkant

Zeerllst.

Hoever van die grens af het julIe stilgehou? -~

. Omtrent t n myl of twee.

Wat het van die 37 passasiers Hull het daar uit

gek im en weg geraak daar tussen die borne.

Het hulle enige iets by hulle gehad toe hulle da r uit

klim? -~ . Hulle het niks gehed by hulle nie.

Geen bag sie nie. Wat het van die kar geword

Die kar het hulle daar yelaat staan.

En julIe is toe terug Johannesburg toe? _fo. . J ohanne!burg

ja, meneer.

RUISONDERVRAGING DEUR DIE VERDEDIGING = "

Vir hoe lank werk jy vir mnr.' Essop? -~ Ek werk omtrent

vier jaar.

En jy erk as dryw9r, ne7 -- As dry r.

Jy SA jy het mense al tevore geneem Durban toe ne? --

Durban, Swaz·land.

Het jy self mense na Durban geneem?

net een maal gery.

Durban het ek

4. I ...

- 4 - CCE1ZEE

Hoeveel mense het jy Durban ien.

ie? -'- ien.

En het mnr.' Es o~ jou gese dat jy moet Ek het

my inst uctions van hom ai.

ie h t mnr.' Essop instructions gegee? e t' jy?

' Ek w et nie. Hy yean na die mense wat hom huur,. Walter,Sisu u.

Ek het eendag gekry met alter Sisuiu s'aan en praat, buitekant.

Hul e st an en praat buitekant? -- Ja.

Maar was, jy, het jy gehoor waarvan hulle praat? --

Nee, ek het nie gehoor nie.

aar mnr. Essop nie vir jou gese vir wie julle doen

hierdie werk? -- Hy h t my net gese ~ns doen dit vir die

A. .C.

O • . Elke' keer? -- . Hy hat net gese dis 'n job van die

A.N.C. ~

Het hy dit ges~ elke kaer? Hy se dit nie elke

keer nie, hy se net: "Sull~ moet mense optel van Mako~a af.

JulIe moet hulle in die location gaan optel .

En is dit al wat hy sou gese het? - Ja . '

Daar J 'n job? -- ' Daar's tn jt>b.

Het hy jou ooit gese hoekom die mense, byvoorbeeld

Durb n toe wil gaan? -- Dit het hy gese is vir 'n v rgadering .

Mmm? -- Vergsderings.

ie et so gese? -- Es op het vir ons gese, vir my

gese . Ek wou geweet het waarvoor gaan ons.

Hy het jou so gese . Hoeveel keer het jy na Lobatsi

toe gery? -- Lobatsi toe het ek 'n hale paar maal gery •

. tn Hele' paar maal? _ ... Ja.

, En het jy elke keer jou opdrag van Essop gekry? - ... Ja . '

,----------~~-e--j-y--~tuienis op tn vorige geleentheid gegee van-

oggend het jy gese d t al at jy geweet hat die mense gaan in

nit Rhodesia . I s dit r 9? ~- Ja, 0 Rhod sia toe . ' Dig 1. Is dit al w t jy gese het? - - Dis 81 w t ek weet

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- 5 - COE1ZEE

daar van die borders af gaan hulle in. Toe se hulle vir my

hulle gaan hier van af na Rhod~ ia to • . Hull h t nie gese

nr. Escop het jou ook nooit nie gese nie. ne? -~ Nee .

Hat jy ooit mnr. Essop gavra? -- ' Ek net hom gevra.

Hy se net ek moet net die mense vat en aflaa! by die borders . · Het hy gese hy eet nie wat h lIe b si heid is nie?

ee.' hy het nie vir my gese. · By h t I tyd s am met my

broer gepraat.

Ja, maar het jy gevra? - - Nee, ek doen net die erk •

. Ek het hom nlks gevra nie . Hy het my net 9 S9 0 hulle e

te vat .

· Maar elke keer jy ry men e na d bordet'. Het jy

nle mnr . Essop gevr ? - · Nee, ek vra nie qu tions nle .

Jy vra nie questlon~. . Jy h~t questions gevra

toe jy hulle na Durban toe gevat het. -- Ja, dit het ek

gevra , because ek het nie ge eet wa rloor gaan hulle .

I En mnr: Essop het jou ook nooit ges e hoekom hulle

wil gaan nie? -~ Nee, al wat hy my gese het is die tyd at

ek hulle in va~ Lobatsi toe vir vergaderings . . Dit w s laas

j aar in Juni~ .

· Hy het vir jou gese jy moet hulle na ver aderings

Ja, ek het aIleen gegaan.

· J y h~t aIleen gegaan? _ ... J a, tl ie- Vrydag c egaan.

En d arna het hy jou eer gese jy moet hulle vat vir

'n v gadering? Hi rvanaf het ek ge aan Lobatsi toe

ir 'n v rgadering . . Daarvanaf toe moes ek hulle net aflaai

by die borders .

• Nee, maar kyk , na Juni wanneer het jy eer met hvll

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- 6 - :tfZEE

gegaan Junie, reI ek an i ek het elke maand gevat.

· Laat· on Augu tusmaand vat. • Het hy jou gese jy moet

mense na die border oe vat? -- Hy .et y gese daar is 'n

load uit.

Da s 'n? ~- Daar's- 'h ag uit, van die A.N.C.

om eg te vat.

~ te vat • . Het hy vir jou gese dis vir 'n meting?

-- Hy ht my nie ese di vir 'n m etin • . Ons bo t hulle n t

dropby dOe grens, by die bo e s.

Het "y hom gevr hoekom ~il hy die men e na die borders

toe vat? ee, ek het hom nie gevra nie. Hy h t ese ek

moet hulle net by die borders drop, en daar moes ons omdra i •

. Daar vanaf sal hulle self sien waarheen.

as y nie geinte ese rd om te weet? -- Nee.

Tot vandag weet jy nie hoekom hulle na die border toe

gaan. eet nie waa=voor hulle soontoe gaan nie. T

· Ja. wil dit aan jou st 1 dat, dis miskien

'nbietji eienaardig dat jy nie nuuskierig w s nie, en nie

mnr. Essop gevra hoekom wll hierdie mense na die borders

toe gaan. -- Nee, ek is et drywer, i nie werklonig nie.

Ek het nl binne in die kar m ten van hulle gesels nie dat

hulle kon se waar gaan nulle heen.

et "y gedink dit was vir 'n meeting? -~ Wel,'ek vat

hulle ltyd in vir meetings.

· Ja. yk na daardie tyd h t jy altyd gedink hulle

gaan vir 'n In eting? -- Ja. E)ie weede keer wat hy my se

het ek gedink dis ook vir 'n meeting.

O. - . Hy se vir my nee, drop hulle net by die grens.

Ek gaan nie in nie. .. In ahder woorde was daar 'n hele paar keer wat hy gese

het hulle gaan vir 'n meting. . And~r tye het hulle nie vir

jou e5~ hoekom hulle gaan. -- Baie maal net hul1G nla my hoekom gaan hulle. Dat ek van dinges af, agter die meeting

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glo Juniemaand gehed, ge e het, toe het hulle

gese ons goal, gooi hulle net a by die grens; daar vanaf

gaan hulle verde:r: in R ad si toe, want bulle

Ja, ky varr Junie af tot Februariemaand in '63 A I he mnr. EssotJ jou op 'Tl p ar keer es 0 ,Vat hi rdie mense .

na die bo der. Hull~ gaan v'r 'n meetin '1 en'ander tye he:: ,

hy niks " . ese n1.e. Hy het net esA vat hull • s am met my broer. · Ek ry nie lle ni9 ni • Di

Ek y

altyd

ie.

Hoev el ke r het hy vir jou 9 sa hu]e gaan vir 'n

meting. Hy h t my net Juniemaand gese ek moet die Kbmp

eg vat vir 'n meting.

uni maand? Ja, ~n daarvanaf het my net ges":

Jy vat die klomp. Jy los hulle n t by die bord rs.

Jull gaan nie in nle.

gaan nie in nie.

Maar h t . y hom gevra: • I

Nee, ek het hom gevra. ' Hy ... waarvoor is dit nie • .--------

1 .. . h' rdie n u ook vir 'n

we e t e If-D.i.a

Jy het hom evra hoekom 9 an "hulle en hy SA hy eet

elf nie. Is dOt die posisi ? Hy SA hy eet self nie.

~et elf nie. 0 hy dit weet, an y praat, dit weet

ek nie.

Maar hy et so ge e? -~ Ja, vir my het hy ese hy weet self nie.

W s tilt IOU in Ju Ie or Septembermaand toe hy dlt gese

het? - Se m ar daar Aug t,. September.

August Septembe • En toe hierdie besigheid eer b

dat j y m nse we r vervoer he thy; ook gese hy weet nle? _ .. Hy t

weet net Dese ermaand(?}

w-t s)' ~roer in ge.,aan het na Franti town met 1 k amp. Ja. So, in ander woorde al hierdle tye at jy die

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mense vervo r na die border, die eerste ke Junie '62 '

het hy vir jou ese dat hulle wil na 'n meeting toe gaan

(~Glyk) in geva .

Maar die ander tye oe jy gevra het het hy gese hy

et nie hoekom hulle ga n. -- Ja. I

HOF VERD G.

Daardie aand in Februarie toe jy mense opgelaai het

jy het een v n d Combis bestuur, nie waar nie? -'Ja.·

ou, ' kan jy onthou watter mense in jou Comb' w s?

Ek kan ontlou, Ja.

- Elke n van hulle? _a.. , Nee,' nie ieder een nie, maar

daardie wat ek geken het en wat ek ge ien het •

. En die me nse in die nder Combis het jy hulle geken?

el ,"daar w 'n p' r wat ek ook ken.

e 'n p ar in die ander? - " Ja.

In die ander Combis7 Ja.

Nou, waar het jy die beskuldigde eers gesien? -~

. Die 'beskuldigde otgothi?

Ja. . Die beskuldigde et ek al gesien in die dorp.

Ja, maar het jy hom daardie aand gesien? _a.. Ek h thorn

daardie aand 9 sien, ja.

- In wetter Combi het hy in gegaan? _a.. In my Combi.

- In jou Combi? Ja. '

Is jy seker daarvan? a... Ek i~ seker daarvan.

~aar het jy hom opgelaai? Ek h t hom opgelaai, ~e~-w-e~et nie at is daardie location ar ek hom opgclaai, een

van die locations.

Maar jy weet self nie atter location nie? _ .. Nee,

because ek het hom op die pad gesien w tons rYe

- 9 - COEifZEE

ken? Nee .

Jy het 5, geen ander besond de van hom geweet?

Ne --- E eet nie se werk

hy doen.

aarohy hly of so ie s. - .. N e.

Ek stel dit net aa. jou dat jou ge uienis i.v.m. d e

oplaai van die b skuldigde nie die wa rheid i n:e. el,

ek se di die waarheid. • Defen addr s es court re pints .:. t is attacking.

HERONDER~GING DEUR AA ~B

By w tt r plekke het jy beskuldigde -- ' Ek het hom

n di dor gesien. . Ek h~t hom in die dorp ge ien by Nkoza

hou e.

at gebeur by Nkoza house? -~ Dit is waar hulle office

is.

Ie e offlc-e? - Di A.N.C.

Hoe dikwels het jy hom da r gesien? -,- . l,'as ek

so sien, so paa maal sien ek hulle d arso, dan gaan ek verby.

, Party maal ry ek m t my kar over soc Orlandos.

' Het . y die aand to jy 7 tot by die grens gevat het

met be kuldigde gepraat, of met die mense binne in die Combi

gepraat? -~ Ek hat saam met hulle gesels.

Saam t hulle gesels. S am met, sommer n t

JoP. Sammet.

Terwyl julIe gery h t? _lo. ' J a, oe vra e nog: ,

· Hoe v r gaan julle? ' ~oe s~ hulle vir my hulle gaan so,

daarvan af waar hulle gaan af klim gaan hulle daarvanaf vorentoe,

van Lobatsi af gaan hulle deur Rhod~sia se kant toe •

. Het hulle ges~ waarheen hulle gaan? -- Par, het ges~

hulle gaan college toe. Party het gese well, hulle 9 an

. Tanganyika toe, weI toe vat ek hulle nie baie dinges nie

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- 10 - COE'flEE SULEMAN

want ek het gemeen well hulle is nou weg; ek laai hulle net

af • . Ek n~e nie baie notisie van hulle nie.

Het jy geweet vir watter doel die mense gaan? - Nee

e het nie geweet vir watter doel gaan hulle nie.

Het jy geweet vir w tter doel enige van die ander

groepe gegaan het? Ja, die ander weet ek, want hul~e't

gese hulle gaan om te, gaan om te gaan leer vir soldate.

Waar het jy dit verneem? -~ In dte kar, in die Combi.

Baie wat ek gery het, hulle het gese hulle gaan vir training,

soldate, ander het gese hulle gaan college toe.

Het hulle gese wat se training? Toe vra ek hulle,

toe se hull hulle ga n leer om oldate te weese . Een van

my vriende was ook nog saam met hulle daar. Geraid Lockman.

fe? _ .. Geraid Lockman . . Ceci'lla se suster se kind.

anneer as hy saam? -~ Hy ry altyd saam met die

dinges, hy het saam met my nog i~ ove ber gery. ' Hy h t saam

met my August ook gery. Toe ~as hy ook saam met my.

ESSOP AHMED SULEMAN, s.s.

Do you live at Johannesburg? Yes, I do.

Do you have a business there? Yes, I op r te

taxi servi

., - 11 - SULE

· Were the passengers actually conveyed to Lobatsi

itself? - ' Yes.

In F~bruary 1963 did you convey any passengers for

the A.N.C.? Yes.·

By whom were you engaged? W lter Si uiu.

Who is he? -~ . He i a leader of the. .C.

When did you meet him? -~ I met him in June last year.

Have you been previously engaged by Sis~lu to convey

passengers? ihat is previous to February of 1963? -- Yes.

What'number of passengers did you convey in February

• t 63? \ _... 37.

, We~'e they Bantu males? - Yes. \ ""-----

Where were they to be conveyed from? - From Johann urge

To w ere? From Johannesburg to t border of

Lobatsi.

· I s that the border of Bechuanaland? Tha t s right.

On tl.e border.

hen ere these people to be conveyed? -~ In

Volksw gen Combi bus.

, When re they actually ccnveyed? - ' In February.

During the day or in te evening? In the evening.

What time were they picked up? -~ It was approximately

bout six o'clotk.

In the morning or in the evening? - In the evening.

Wher w re these persons picked up? -~ From Mar bi

Garage. From the location.

One point or at various points? -~ rious points.

How many Comb'~ conveyed them? -'" Thr e Combis.

Was there a guide ~or the Combis? -- Yes. Jo Modi i

and Mbat were the guide •

. Are tho e two persons associated with the A.N.C.?

Yes.

--- Can you tell us what their positions are in the Congr s ? 12. I ... ·

- 12 - SULEMAN

They' used to be with Walter Sisu u in the office.

They helped Walter Sisuiu in the office. and they were the

peopl to get the people in the Combi.

Did they organise transport? - That s r1ght.

THE COURT: Who is Walt r Sisu u? -~ Walter Sisuiu is the

le-der of the .AN.C.

THE PROSECUTOR: Did you see to it that the 37 persons all

boarded the Combis? - Yes.

Did you accompany the Combis any furth~r? - No.

Did th y then depart for the border of Bechuanaland.

en did the Combis return? They did return the same.

the early part of the morning.

The followin morning? The following morning.

Do you know for hat purpose these people had been taken

to the border? Yes. ~a lt r Sisu:lu said t at t ey are

go ng to Kenia and Tanganyika to become soldiers.

Had bther groups been conveyed by you similarly?

Fro Johannesburg to the border. - Yes.

On approximately how many occasions? -~ . On approx-

imately s ven or eight occasions.

· Sev n? --- ' To eight occ sion •

, On t ose occasions were you Iso engaged by the

A.N.G.? - Yes.

What is t e purpose of those other persons Ie ving

the country? To 0 to Kenia and Tanganyika to become

soldiers.

You have a contract price between you and the A.N.C.

in regard to tr nsport? - Yes.

Wha was that? R50 for a Comb'.

• Was that an agreed price which applied in all cases?

--' Yes •

. Do you know the accused at ali? I Neve Than you.

eBn him DB 0 7

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- 14 - . StILE

CRG S-EXAMlNATION BY THE OaF NC~

When alt~r Sisulu employed you did h tell you that

it as on behalf of any particular organis tion? Well,

he nevermention d about any particular organisation. I wa

only doing ork for th A. '. c. ' I'm asking you did he ever indicate that you were

being employed for the A •• C. to do transport? ... . No. '

So a far as you are concerned Sisuiu alone a the

person who employed you? Sisu u as the ole person who

employed me to convey the e passengers.

Convey pas engers? -~ Yes.

You didn't know whether it as for th A.N.C.

or whether it as for the Scout mov ment? No one told you

about any organisation. -- No. Only thing, I w introduced

by Kathrado that alter Sisu u is the leader of the A .. C."

. If I need transport he will get in touch ith me.

· Ye , but subsequent to that conversati "'In

ell I ouldn't know

Walter Sisuiu never told you that it wa for any

particular organisation? No, he just merely told m I

must, he needs my Combis to convey 0 many passengers to go

)( to Kenia and Tanganyika.

Yes, but he never mentioned any organisation?

• No, he never mentioned that it wa Pan African ••

So you don't know on behalf of w~at organisation it

was done? ell,' I don't know on what behalf. All I know

is Walt r Si u u e:1gaged me. • That is all.

•

he~ v.hy is it that you told my learned friend, or

told the court, that you did this for the .AN.C.? -~ Because

he was the leader of the the A.N.C.

In other words you just thought this wa for the

A.N.C. - Yes.

, I se~. . Now,' look, at this stage did you know hether

15. I ...

- 15 - SULEMA.

the A.N.C. a banned or not? -~ ~ell, I don't remember when

the Gove~nment banned the organisation, hether it was,

m a month or ethe it as a year ago • . I don't r member.

A e you serious? -- Absoiutel).

You ave kno the Cong~es for four or five years,

you say. - Yes.

~nd~you me n to s y you don't ~no when it was banned?

I couldn't s y when it as

And you mean to say that at no stage when you gav v

lifts for al er Sisuiu you d"dn' r alise that th~ Con~r s

wa banned? ell, 1 kne the Congres was banned by

the Gove m nt, but then there is no point in me saying

a year ago, three years ago. I don't khow th xac t date.

You n, are you saying that hen for in tance you

acted in Jun~ ' and transported people in June 1962 you

didntt real"se that it va s a banned organisation? -- I

n v r gave thou ht when it was banned.

Y u at no stage thou ht abo t it being banned.

· Is t at what you said? - Yes.

In other fords all th~se months you have been taking~qp

10m you considered were Cong~ess people around t e country.

Ne 11, I never considered anything. . I was introduc d,

Kath ada introduced me to a1t r Sisuiu as the 1 ader of the

A •. C., ahd ttl am to convey these people to th border.

Look, please don't r peat that s ory again. You have

epeated it three times. I'm asking you, didn't you in your

own nind

THE H is replying Mr. Soggot. You ta 't prevent hi

f om replying.

reply f om him.

I'm trying to get the more relevant

At the stage when you acted and tlansported

people on in tructlons of Walter Sisu u djd YDU or di d you

not consider that these wer~ A .. C.·p~op1e? -~ ~e11, I 1n w

16. I ...

., - 16 - STJLEl-JAN

hat ~alt r Sisu u is a leader of the A.N .C. and t at he

wanted me to convey the passengers.

Did ou or did you not consider that the pageng rs

were A. .C . pebpl? -~ ell , I had nothin to do as far as

th passeng rs are concerned . . I haa only to do i th Wa l t r

, Sisuiu ,

Mr. Es OPt - and the money he was suppo ed to pay me .

r . Essop, I h 'e ask d tne q stion 0 times , but

I m asking you for an ans~ r. Did you or did you not

consider these people Ie members of connected with the

A •. C. , the people you transported -.. 'leI 1 , I had the

feelin ~ that seein alL r Sisuiu is as ing m to convey

thes passengers that they must be part and p reel of their

o ganisation.

Yes, and are you now saying that hen you had that

feelin you didn ' t a'9..so realise that the organisation was

an illegal one? 't r member hether , when

the Gove.nment made it illegal . I do 't k 0 edt .

Yes, but is your evidence that throughout the

pe lod hen you ere doin trans ortation u til 1963 it never

occur ed to you that this might all be v ry illegal?

I 11 , as far as I w s concerned walt r S:sulu used to engage

m and ' I wa running strictly a ar as I a concerned

con e }ing the people for purposes of re ard .

~eG, but that asn ' t the question I put to you .

Are you saying that all .L}lese mont} 5 • t neve occurred to

you that this Congress activity was illegal? -- ~ll\ in

a. One can say that i was illegal and not illegal if

come to find out when the Governm nt had banned the

organ·sation .

During all these months Jid you or did you not consider

that this activity was i llega1? - ~ll . i t as lllsg 1 in leaving t country , and to become soldie s .

17 . I ... ·

' f

- 17 - SULE

But you never considered - . I never gave any

p ticular thought to tl t.

Not, you didn't give any p rticul r t OU t to t

Congress aspect? o.

That the Congress a~ a banned organisa ion No.

You answer is o. e you sure of toa ans r? -~

Yes. I had 0 i g to do whet er t ey were banned or was 't

anned.

Yes. - I donI y to 0 .,1 t 1 er Si u u nga in

hi nd p ying me he reward.

W 11, did you th nk that t ere .was any illegality

in t e work you we e dol g? talkin now about your

road transportation busine That re no in eres ed in

ere. You an whet er it oS illegal if I had conveyed

these people •

. No " am saying did you consi er any spec of thi

conv yance illegal? No .

No. 'You 't ought you were -- I wa unning pilot

taxi.

Y In 0 er words in all this a tivity on behalf \

of ~l er 5i u u ou, tle only illegail y as far as you

were conc:erned s t e pil0t taxi bus1ness? -- As f r as I

s concerne if the polic ad 0 stop m~ I would t 11 the

poli e Iter 5isu u enga ed me f r of reward.

For purpose of reward. A d as far as you ere

conc rn d that was the only illega ity in tIe 101e busin s ?

You never t aug t of any other illegality? - No.

r. Essop, the microphone ca 't p'ck up a nod. You'

must say yes or no or sometling else. I wa only interested

as far as I wa concern d with t e police that if they stop

us I was conveyin people for purposes of re~ rd on instruc-

tions of WaIte S ' ~Iu .

. Is t la t 11 you were going to tell e polie ?

18.' / ... -

- 18 - .... ULE1I.AN

And i as quite willing to tell e police tha It r Sisuiu

told m that these p ople ere suppo ed to go to nie

and Ta ganyika to bec e soldiers .

Why re you ill'ng to tell the polic t1 t? -~

B cau 1 must ell .e f ct •

If_t mselves kne they were Bee use the passengers

'enia and Tang nyika.

WI Y ~ere you willing to say it? -~ e~ I 'm t~lling

tel onest t uth. y hould I tide something and then the

po ice ill say that I lave nowledge tla I m do·ng som thing

i1le 01.

, D'dn' t you con ider tll t that a illegal? aking

peop1 to Tan anyi'a. kll, a that "me I a concerned

lha I am pilotin and I a p ep red to tell tIe pelic

everyt in •

Did you or di you not co sider th t taking people

t~ Tanganyik w s illeg I

it.

A t a ti e I dian't consider

You idn't, you did not. It a ounts to tlis: Ybu

re lly had dozens of conversations, I suppose, during all

t ese onths with a1 r Sisulu. -- veIl, I ha quite a few

conversations.

',vell , you ad t V.?8S t seven or ei ht trips, not so?

So it .~ P 0 ably not wrong to say you had double the con-

v lsations ith im. - I ouldn't s y dozens, I ould say

about a dozen.

A dozen. Can you remembeI each conve sation ?

Or ca you just remember t e general ffects? -~ 11, t e

g neral effect a ju t that in engaging the Comb' and wh r

the people were going to .

Engaging the Combi and here the people were going to.

Going to.

Am the ti e and place you e e to pick ·e em up. _ And t ,e time and pI CEl, and th t j,ey ere oin to n1 and

19.' I ... ~

,.

. ,-;

- 19 -

Tan nyi'a 0 b come sold' rs .

. Ye s , 'no I untlers toad from your reviou vidence

t ot on some occas~ons he tol you that the urpose as or

peopl e to beco .e sold'erc , but not on otle occasions? -~

I Jouldn't s y ~o~e, maybe dt least •• it could have slipped

p, :t co ld 1 ve been on one occasion , but ~t ouldn ' t,

it was "e u reed where t e eople were oin .

Yes , ~el 100 on every occasion obviously you

a eed ~ ere t e people ere going . Yes . ~

B1 in he dozen converse: tions that yOu ha you ,

2 under toad in your previou in the other case mo ing , you of t)9 particul r occ-as i ons

thi s

that you m ntioned he might not have mentioned the purpo e

eople as sold'e s . Do you t'll agree with

on one occ on . _

Yes . On ahy of the, on ny particular of the one

o ca 0 ~ ~n you had a discussion . - Yes , on one particular

occas i on .

Yes . But you don ' t l.no~ when that occasion wa ?

"-.1 t could .ave been a!1y time? - {as . · ------Yes . You see I want to come bac to, if I un erstand

ou correctly - if i am on you must pleas correct me -

if I understand you correctly you felt there as noth'ng to

hide in w t you're doing . - No, othin to t: ide. If t e

olice had sto ped me e ~ ld tell em h 1'e w were going ,

an w.at purpose a . I wa n t leaving the country

as far as I a concerned .

You .ad nothin to hi 'e . You aidn't ~ep your

act'vity secret . - - Exa c lY e

If anybody asked yo , not on the police, but orne one

else . TIey said: Essop, what ali you caIlying tl ece people for? I "bu ould hay told tl em . Is t at rig t ?

,20 . I ... ·

(~

I

o - SULE

e ll, the only people that I suspect ould ask me would

be t e police.

a's not my question • . I am trying to get your

st te of mind. That's y I m asking you these question.

Yes .

You ould nave considered the whole thing to b

innocent, or fairly innocent, not so? - Ves. ~

· It w s part of your ordinary taxi busine s. - It

w s par~ of my ordinary taxi business.

· Your oL~inary pilot taxi business. - Yes.

· Now, w at I am saying is in your own mind you weren't

hiding the f ct ~hat you were taking people out of the

country. -- No, 'f the pdice had asked me I would tell th m.

If anybody asked you you would have told them, not o?

· Well, 1 don't kno .' If a ybody would have ask d me I would

h ve told them hat we do convey people up to Lobat i,

BechtJanaland.

You are sure of that reply? - Yes.'

You are sure of that. You didn't k ep your activity,

in ot er words, you made no ttempt to keep your activity

a secret. No .

Your answer was no? - No.

No , you had a number of drivers, didn't you? --

· And id you tell the drivers what it was 11 about?

ell, I normally don't tell the drivers anything • . I

just t 1 t em to takethese poeple up to the border.

hat's not my question. Did yo~ tell the divers

at any stage wny they, No .

t What it as all about? - No .

Didn't they ever ask you? - o.

· These a=e people who have been working for you fOI mont s, for yea ... s . . Do ybu mean to say in all t 5 ti e

1. I ... ·

- 21 - • SULEMAN

you didn't tell them th purpose of the trips? --'No. I

never told them. If h~ could hav gather d omething out of

the I never told them. · Normally e just

tell the driver to convey the p ple to the border.

In June' for example, 196 , did Coetzee take peopl ,

-- Yes.

Did you tell him where to? -~ Ye ,I I toid him he is

to take these people to the meeting; wait for the meeting to

be finished and then bring them back.

So you told him then that the purpose of the trip as

eting? -- Yes.

Now, in august for example, did you tell him what the

was? - No. ~ I just told him to drop the people at the

• Did he ay to you: . " el hat is it all about?' ~~

· He didn't a k you? -~ No.

· Not one single question? ~ . I don't r member.

Normally I give them instructions.

ell, then 1 t me put this question to you • . If h sked

you would you have told him the truth? -~ •••

, I beg your pardon? -- I sUl'pose so.

And if he asked you many times you ould certainly hav

told him, not so? -~ Yes •

. You ee,' Coetzee has told his wors 1ip a different story.

Coetzee says that h did ask, and he ays that you indicated to

him that you didn't know what the trips were for. Wha~ do you

say to that? -~ ell',' I don't rf!member anything. ' My ins truc-

tions to the driver normally were to take the people to Lobatsi

and he w s to convey them and come back.

, Can you suggest any r ason

and I may have acknowl dged.

-- . He m y have asked me

, But that is not in evidence • . His ~vidence is that you

22.' I ... ·

- 22 - , SULEMAN

repeat dly told him

THE COURT: . He s ys he may have ask d him and he may hav

-- ' The evidence is to the contrary, sir, and I am putting

it to him.

. I beg your pardon?

contrary. ' It wasn't itJnored.

~ . The evidenc is to the

THE DEFENCE: You see Coet,ee's evidence was this morning

that you specifically told him on a number of occasions

• •

that you didn't know hat the purpose of these trips as for.

Now, do you deny that or do you admit it? -~ Well, if he could

have asked me, he could hav asked me and 1 could have told

him to do what he as supposed to do, and to convey the peopl

to the border.

You wouldn't hav lied to him, not so? Well, I

don't think I would have lied to him.

Well, can you suggest any reason to his worship why

•

he comes with that version this morning? . '[hat you told him

you didn't know. - Well,- 1 have no idea, but 1 ju~t told Piet

to convey these people. ' He cbuld have asked me and I could

have just told him to do what he is supposed to do.

· You can't take it further than th t? I couldn't

take it at all.

I think you have indicated to his worship that you

don't remember specific conversations, exact conversations

but you remember sort of a general idea of what was agr ed upon,

not so? - Ves, general id s between Sisuiu.

Yes. " -- Yes, the general idea about how many Comb~s

he required.

Yes. -- Ho many people were to be conveyed and the

purpose of conveying •

. Now, ' if one takes for example the August 1962 discussion.

I take it you can ' t r member whether the, he fir t told you how many Combis he wanted, or whether he first told you

.23. / •••

- 23 - . SULE

where h wanted to go. -- Well, I can't say which instance

he plac d first.

ell, that's the point. -- I mean th general point

is ho many Combis, how many passengers, and her they are

going and the purpose.

!hat's right. . Now,' that's t e point, and that is that

today you can't possibly tell his worship which part of the

conversation you had irst. · Is that so? -~Nat ally not •

. He could have told me that: I ant two Com01s. Qr h~ could

have told me I have got 20 pas sengers to convey, and that I

need t 0 Comb's. I don't kno which entence he must have

Yes, in other words, your conversation might have

started off with him saying, let us say: Sol i er re going

to be tra'n d. Or it might have ended of with oldi rs are

going to be trained. Ei ther one of the t o. - ' Or h could

have started off, or he could have ended off with the soldiers.

Yes. And that's of course applied to any of the

conversations which you had. ' To ail of th conversations

hich you had, not so? Corr ct.

I beg your pardon? -~ Yes.

· Now iisten • . You, I thi'1k have made it very clear

before the cou=t that your motive was maey, not so? - 'Yes.'

' You anted to make profit. So, and you also I think

made it clear t is morning, I don't think we have to go over

the whole thing again, that it really didn't matter hat

they wanted the transport for. - Yes.'

Whether they w nted a meeting or whether th y w nted

to go overseas or whether they wanted to go and swim • . It

didn't matter to you, as long as they paid you, not so?

lell, it would matter. how many Combis they wanted, how

many passengers to be conveyed, and here they are going.

• No - . Of course it wouldn' t ml1tt~ hop t110V 24. / .••

- 24 - SULEMN

ant to go to Durban f~r a swim, it wouldn't matter, but it

h s beenfuld to me that they want to go for thi •

The point is you didn't c re what they anted to do

n the plac they were going to, that wasn't your busines •

It 85n't my busin ss, if they were going to Keni and

. Tanganyika and to become soldiers.

N ,r was it your bu iness why they wer going to' Duro n?

Correct.

Or why they ere going to Swaz·land.

. As far as you are concerned they only thin hich a

necessary was an agreement on the Comb's, the time and the

money, not so? -~ The ~ombi th time and the money and the

purpose, because if it is a meeting then I mu t make a return

trip with the passengers.

ell, you would ask him, you would ask him whether

he wanted a return trip. He t~ld me he wac conveyeing

pas engers and we must only drop them at Lobatsi and they are

going train as soldiers; there is no return come back.

Yes, but it amounts to this, the other thing you

anted to know s whether you would have to ait or not?

Naturally. If h tells me he fants us to drop the people

at the border and they are going to Kenia and Tanganyika

to become sol~iers, there as noquestion of aiting for them.

I Then they are going to finish training as soldiers and they

must bring them.

ihe point is, when you made your contract with him

you were interested in the money, the time, the place, the

number of Comb's, and whether you would have to ait, not so?

-- . And that they have got a meeting or they are going one-way

traffic to become soldiers.

That"vas only because you wanted to know whether you

must wait. --That is 'hat he told me .

I Yes, but I'm talking about what interest d you.

25. I ... '

"

- 25 - SULEMAN

-- Naturally I had to ask if they had a meeting . . If it is

not a meeting, but he u ed to tell me drop them as far as the

border, th n he tells me that we must drop them a far a the

border. ' .lhat means they are going, that there i no meeting

there, they are going through the veld, and that they are

going to Keni and Tang nyika to b come soldiers. ~'m not

supposed to come back and pick them up.

· Yes, the only' thing i this: You ould have done

the job even if he hadn't told you w y they wer going

aero the border. If h said to you "Look " I ant

three Com~is to take m n to the border, and you don't h ve

to wait there. t That was enough for you. -- Well, he would

tell me what the purpose a.

· 1 kno he would tell you. Tha you hav told his

worship dozen of times. ~'m aying it didn't really matter

whether he told you the purpo e or not, provided he told you

wheth r to ¥ait or not, not so? -~ The ~aet remain here

alt r us d to make it quite clear we w nt 0 many Combis,

so many p ople are to be tak n, they are going to eni and

Tang nyika to become soldi rs.

I Y s • . You ee,' I ju t want to put it to you this

morning " I put it to you in very clear t rms, that. you weren't

interested in the purpose of t eir journey, and you admitted

that. Well, I am not interested whether they reached

.. enis and T ngsnyika to be trained as soldiers or not, or

whether they retire in K~ni8e hat w sn't my troubles at all,

but that was made known to me by Sisuiu.

RE-EXAMINATION BY THE PROSECUTOR •

· Through your association with 3is~lu and other

representatives of the A.N.C. were you given to understand

who actually wanted the transport? -'- ' Yes,' alter Sisulu

required the transport.

26. I .. e'

I

- 26 - SULEI. B BAME

For imself personally? -~ ell, he wanted th

transp rt to convey the passengers.

hos passengers? The people that ere supposed

to trav 1 in th Comb's.

But ere you given to understand that Walt r Sisuiu

w nted these t ings for himself alone or for some other purpos ?

No, he wanted to book th Combi for conveying these people

or. behalf of the organisation.

THE cx)URT: And hen he hired you in F bruary did he tat

t e purpose? - Yes.

Nameiy? - ' Namely that he had 37 people to convey

to on t e border 0 Lobatsi, and they will travel t~ enia

and T~nganyika to become soldiers.

HARRY VUYISILE BAMBANE, ' v.o.e.

Is jy in Apr~lmaand 1963 daarvan skuldig bevind dat

jy die Republiek verlaat het sonder ' n p spoor ? -~ Ja. •

Is jy ook toe ge tr f? - Ja.

Op tter manier het jy di Rep liek v rlaat?

Ons as op pad na T nganyika toe om opgelei te ord.

. Wie as almal s am met jou gewe s? .... Ons as almal 37 gew es.

Was die beskuIdigde Die beskuldigde ingesluit.

En oe het julIe gereis vanaf die Republiek? -'"

Ons et 'n Iorrie gekry n Z b si toe.

Het 'y tot op Joha nesburg gekom? Ek h t van

Cap ood af gekom na Port Eliz beth.

En daarvan af na Johanneburg? - .. . Ja. •

DEFENCE: . I must ask my 1 arned friend not to lead pI e.

AANKLAER: Op J hannesburg aangekom wat het j 9 doen? ...

Ek i sakere huis geneem , wat aan my onbekend is . ----......... -r--

En hoe is jy daar van daan weg? Ons 's met Comb's

27. I .. ,'

- 27 -

van daardie huis g.

Ho v el Comois wa~ daar? '-- Drie Corru;is.

Wa dear enig ander voertui~? -~ Een otorkar.

aar het jy die beskuldigde vir die eerste keer 9 sien?

By Loba si.

at as die doel laarom die groep die land verlaat het?

eet nie van die , -- Ek

i aIleen v n my plek af w ~. Ek

ander n e nie.

Vir atter doel h t jy gegaan? _M Ek het die plek

verlaat om opgelei te word.

Opgei i 'I arvoor? -,- . A 'n sbldaat.

H t jy m t die ander per one in die groep 9 praat?

V Ja. Hat jy met die b skuldigde gepraat? -- N e, ek het

nie met beskuldigde gep aat nie.

Vir atter r d h t die ander persona aam gega n?

DEFE

AAJ LAER SPT:ffiE DIE HOF TOE.

DEFE CE ADDRESSES THE COURT. '

THE URr: fhe itness s one of th group who as travel-

ling to Lobat i and from ther to Kenia and Tang nyika.

Evidenc has been produced as to the purpose for hich they

had gone there, namely that Slsulu had hlr d the e people,

Sisuiu h d hired one Essop to convey them for purpose of

bIng trained as soldiers. The witnes before court say

that he ent there for that purpose. From the evid nce

already given the inference may be formed that they went

there for a common purpose. . The question is therefore

dmi sable.

DIE AANKLAER: at het hulle vir jou ge ~ omtrent die doel

van hulle vertrek uit dj Republi k7 ~~ . Hull h~t DD Y dieselfde doel gegaan a eke

28. I ...

f\

- 28 - BAMBANE

Tot hoe ver het die Combis julle v rvoer? -~

Tot op die grens.

Het die groep daarna bymekaar gebly of uiteen gegaan?

-- 0 Die groep het bymekaar gebly.

W s daar 'n I ler 0 'n spreker onder die groep ge ees?

Ja, di een at ek gesien het is die persoon at verlede

eek ier veroordeel is.

Is d1. t Joe G ", - Ja.

Hoe het julIe toe verder gereis vanaf die r ns?

Van Lobatsl af h tons t voet geloop.

fot waa? -- ' In Lo~ tsi lokasie het ons 'h lorrie

ge'ry.

ie het ie lorrie in die hande gekry? Ek weet nie.

Die orrie et in die nag daar gekom.

'ie het julIe van die lorrie v~ te>l? .:.. Ek h t niemand

ge 00 vir ~ns van die lorrie verLel .ie.

By watter pIe' was jull toe ge ees? .L.

Lobatsi goed nle. E

plek is nie.

Ek ken nle

eet nie wat die naam van d ardie

saam.

o Is julIe almal aam hierso? Ja, ons was nog almal

. Is julIe saam toe ook v rt ek met die vragmotor? - Ja. 4

Tot aar et julIe gery met die vragmotor? _L.

Tot by Z mbesirivier.

at het daar gebeur? -~ 0 Daar het ons 'n boot gekry,

en ons 1s deur die rivier.

Ja, daar van af? Jo Sabe en die be kuldigde het

toe vir ons 'n Landtover gekry ~oe ons 00 kant die Zambesi-

rivier was.

J e Sabe en dle be kuldigde? Die eskuldigde.

Hoe het hull d':' Lantlrov r gekry? _L. Hull

et di Landrover by Livingstone gaan kIY.

o En 's julIe toe verder met di Lan rove? _L. Ja.

29. I ...

9 - B

.I.

Tot waa toe? -~ Tot by die stasie te Livingstone .

at hct daar gebeur? _i. • Toe ns da r aankom het die

polisie vir ons geal' esteer.

Daarna is julIe terug gestuur? -" Ja.

ERVRAGING DEUR DIE VERDEDIGI G

You say that the purpose of your leavin t e country

was to seek training as a soldie ? Yes.

a that a1 ays yo r purpose or did you ave a

different purpose when you

ht has been told to me.

t out from hom ? -- • It is

But did you 1 ay int nd to get tr ining a a oldi r

or did you want to go ov r ea or out of the country for

some other moti e? -- They aid t at I shoul not a k anything .

Yes, but I ' m t lking about you . The person at

my pl ace told me what to do, and said that I sh uld not

ask any thin •

I se , now but what did you consider you were going

out of the country for? Did ~ou thin you lere going to be

just a soldier or did you cons i der t at you were going out

for studying? -~ I do'not kno . I was to l d that I would see .. what ou l d happen in Tang&nyi a.

In other words you had no idea what the purpose,

what would happen to you unti l you got -~ y s .

~ But en you set out from home did you think you ere ~---- ---

going to be tr ined as a that you_

mig t be sent to a school or university? ~- • When I left '""---home I was told that I wa going on a scholarship , and when

. I met Joe Gabe he told me 90in9 'to be , we are

going to receive military training .

Whe~ was it when he told you that? -~ It

we ere at Lobatsi .

s when

I see . In other wor ds you were really mislead i nto

going out of the country? -30 .' f . . . '

•

-

- , BAMBANE ACCUSED ad you known in the beginning tha this as for

mili tary traini.ng you obviou 1 y ou dn' hllve gone. -- ' o.

uld not have left th Republic.

' And s far as you know the other f some other memb rs

) of the group ere !;imilarly mislead? _100 ' It is possible,

10 but I

7 Yes. A f81 th accused is concerned youonly

~ 8 m~e~t~n~i~m~i~n~B~ch~u~a~n~a~l~a~n~d~. __ -=--~.~Y~e~s~.~--__ -------------------~ Just'one other que tion. Can Coetz be brought into f court please sir? '~hi s gentleman here t Coettee t do you know

r l him? -~ Yee.

l He w s the driver of one of the Cambis, not so? -~

} Ye .

Wer€" you in hi Comb'? - ' TO .

o fUrther qu tion~.

co JeL ES EVI E CE FOR STATE.

DIS SS ON.

1iF NRY MO TGO H , ;uns orn

You are the accused in this matt r? - i m.

How ~ld are you? _100 I m 54 years of ag •

54 years of age. ' Are you married? -'r am a married

man.

Have you got ch~ldren? -~ 1 ave got t 0 children.

Wher are they staying?

village at present ith my if.

- ' They stay in Full r

hous •

hat are your acad mic qualifications? ~- I obtained

th Bachelor of Arts degree from the Univ rsity o~ Sout

. Afrit •

, You obtained what? ~- The Bach lor of Arts'degree.

Can you c.peak up please . -- The ~egr e of Bach lor

of Arts' as a arded to me by the University of South A ric.

And hay you got any ott r degrees than th t?

31.' / ....

- 31 - C USED

I was also a arded he Unj r ity Educ t:on Diplb a by the

Univ'e r i y Rl,od 5 .

at kind of 0" lorna? U ive sity Educ tion

Diploma .

By the Univ rsity of Rhod 57 Y.s .

Have you got any other q alific tions7 I do

not have other ca emic qualifications .

I understand you have 0 no previous convictions

apart from a echnical offence for a location per it . Is

ha t correct? 10- ' I a convicted

PROSECUTOR OBJEOTS. TO LEADI TG QUESTIONS .

To get the facts , you ave in t past b en convicted

once . . I t at correct? Tha is o .

For w at offence? -~ I entered Germiston laati on

wit ou a permit .

at fine did you get? -- I as fined £2 .

You ere eventually arreste , not so , together with

oth r p ople y ~he police and brought back to Sout Afri ca •

. Is t at correct7 Ttac is so .

No , ould you please briefly tel l his orshi p

ow you came to b with t ose p ople, and Jhat your purpose

was in leaving th Republi c . -- • Towa~d t e end of' J une'

t is _ r I

'hich yea? This year, 1963 .

Yes? Towards the end of February . I'm sorry,

I m" ht have said June~ ' Towar d the end of Fe ua y I

lef the Republic Ith a friend of mine W10 i~ a t~acher also

in B ehuanaland . The 'pu4pose for ie. I left h Republ i c

a to go and take up a teaching position which I had been

offered in Tanganyika in Daar8-Sa~lam .

Dar -SallHam7 -~ Dar -Sallaam .

Who made this offer to you? -- ' Dr, 'A ndt, a

Norwe ian sc ~lar .

Dr . Ann? -a. Dr.' Ar nd • 32 . I ... ·

. , - 32 - . ACCUSED

How ao you spell that? Arndt.

Wher as this off r made to you? -~ Duri~g the

course of the conversation I had i th Dr.' rndt in J ohahnes-

burg.

hen as that? -~ . It

middle of 1961.

s in the middle, after the

Yes? Yes,'during that conversation? What'happen d?

_. During the conversation Dr. Arndt, ho had in f ct b en

speaking to th~ Institute of Rac Relations on this matter.

Had he given a sp ech or was it just a conversation?

-- • It was after he had poken about this proj ct hich he

was personally in charge of, the project of building this

school in Tanganyika.

- At what pI ce in Tang nyika?

• In Dares-Salaam. Go on.

~- . In D re -Sala m.

. Dr. )\rnd ex pI ined

the project to me, and it seemed thg No gian p ople r

prepared to build a school in Tanganyika to assist in the

general cultural development

education in Tanganyika.

. . . . . . in the cause of

iJid he indicate, -I'm sorry have I interrupted you?

· Did he indicate hen the project would be finished? -~

He indicated to me that the project would probably be finished

by the middle of 1963 •

. At the stage when you left, let me go a little further

back. You ay you were originally a teacher, not so? . I '

that how you make a living? -~ That· is how I originally m de

my living.

. Did 'you k ep your job? . As a teacher.

keep my job as a teacher.

I did not

· What happened? -~ I wa dismissed from my position.

And hat job, a the tage when you left the R pu lie

did you have? - - At t he stag men 1 left th R pu lie

33. I ... ·

.' . - 33 - ACCUSED

the job I had s one of an office boy.

How muc money did you get for that? -~ I s

receiving £7 a eek.

£.7 a week. What did you expect you would get

from your job in Tanganyika? I did discuss this aspect

with Dr. Arndt and he s id that they were prepar d to offer

initially between forty nd fifty pounds.

For teachers? -- For t achers.

Yes, go on. Anything lse? - . Then I asked Dr.

Arndt whether I wo~ld be considered favourably for the

position of the school when it was completed, and he ans red

me in the ffirmative.

1963?

So what 'as your purpose when you left in February

y purpo~e hen I left in 1963 was to take up thi

position.

is you have a passport? ~- I did not have pa sport.

hy did you not make an application for one? -~

The impr ssion has been created th t the Afritans are not

allowed to have passports, and I considered that I did not

have any chance of obtaining one in the circumstances.

So hen you left the Republic where did you make

your way to?

Repu l·c •

As the first stopping point outsid the

The first stopping point a at Lobatsi.

. Ho many people accompanied you to Lobat i? -'-

I travelled in a car with my friend Mr. ona Mben , Peter

Fona Mben •

. Yes. who . . teaching. · Anyone el e? -. Th re was also a lady. but the

lady did not travel as far as Bechuanaland.

I se • -- • I think we dropped the lady. I th'nk

it must have been about Krug rsdorp or o.

Did -any of t hese other people ha~ anything to do with the, with tr inin9 or training for soldiers as referred here?

34. I ...

- 34 - ACCUSED

· In Tang nyika or anywher else. ~- You mean th lady?

· Any of the other people in the car? -~ . Ther were

only the three of us. · No they did not have anything 0

do ith that.

· Did you at any stage leave the Republic in a convey

consisting of Mr. Essop's thr Comb's? _w I have never been

with Mr. £ssop nor the gentleman who left in Combis.

~at happened in Bechuanaland? her did you

eventually meet this party ith whom you ere eventually

caught? -'- I met them in Be huanaland. I met them, I

remember seeing, I think a few of them when I a in the office

of the British Immigration Aufno ity at the time I was dis-

cussing my stay in Bechuanaland as I hoped to stay for some

time.

· Yes, · and then? Vou m t these people, then? -~

And ~ met these people there. Afte tha I learnt that these

people were proceeding in the same direction as I was proceeding,

and a lift was subsequently arranged for me to travel on the

same lorrie.

caught?

For how long were you with thes people before you w re

. e travelled a hole day i th these people.

They were your own countrymen, is that ri ht? -~

Yes, they were my 0 n countrymen.

Did you talk to them? - · Ye s, I did talk to them

thoug I would not be able to say which one of them I did

speak to.

· Yes. -- ' But I do'consider tha I dia talk to them.

· You ventually Vlere caught by the police? . tmd'

return d to So t Africa. -- That is so, sir.

· Is there anything else you ish to say? . { that al:l?

I consider, sir that hat I 0 ld like to place before the

court in mitigation has already been ••

35. I ...

Collection Number: AD1901 SOUTH AFRICAN INSTITUTE OF RACE RELATIONS, Security trials Court Records 1958-1978 PUBLISHER: Publisher:- Historical Papers, University of the Witwatersrand Location:- Johannesburg ©2012

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