Creador de Carnivale. Entrevista

7/25/2019 Creador de Carnivale. Entrevista

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FILM TV CLUB

MUSIC COMEDY BOOKS GAMES AUX MORE

THE WALKTHROUGH

Daniel Knauf tells us is !lan f"# te en$ "f Carnivle

ByTodd VanDerWerfFeb 22, 2013 12:00 AM
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Sa#eT%eet&'(

Carnivle creator Daniel Knauf recently sat down with The A.V. Club to talk

through the complete run of the cult !" series. #art one$ which deals with

season one$ can be found here. This part deals with season two and his plan for

the four seasons of the show he never got to make$ due to its cancellation.

Te A)V) Clu*+ Te s"% as #i, inte#!e#s"nal #elati"nsi!s-

es!e,iall. %it /"nes. an$ S"0e- "# /"nes. an$ te D#eifuss fa1il.-

%i, a2e n"tin3 t" $" %it te 3en#e ,"ntent) H"% $i$ tat ,"1ea*"ut4

Daniel Knauf+Ill watch %ord "f The &ings$and he ha to !et the r"n!, he !ot

to throw "t "nto Mordor, b#t who !"$e a h"t w"tho#t the relat"onh"% w"th &a'(

At the end o) the day, all o) that b"! wee%"n! t#f " *#t an e+c#e )or

"nteract"on between character For 'e-e%ec"ally w"th TV, beca#e TV " a

really "ntant 'ed"#', and yo#re ha$"n! thee %eo%le "n yo#r l"$"n! roo'-"t
https://www.facebook.com/sharer/sharer.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.avclub.com%2Fr%2F92877fsdhttps://twitter.com/share?text=Daniel%20Knauf%20tells%20us%20his%20plan%20for%20the%20end%20of%20Carniv%C3%A0le&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.avclub.com%2Fr%2F92877tsd&via=TheAVClub&related=TheAVClubhttp://www.avclub.com/article/daniel-knauf-tells-us-his-plan-for-the-end-of-icar-92877#commentshttp://www.avclub.com/articles/daniel-knauf-opens-up-about-carnivales-long-weird,92780/https://www.facebook.com/sharer/sharer.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.avclub.com%2Fr%2F92877fsdhttps://twitter.com/share?text=Daniel%20Knauf%20tells%20us%20his%20plan%20for%20the%20end%20of%20Carniv%C3%A0le&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.avclub.com%2Fr%2F92877tsd&via=TheAVClub&related=TheAVClubhttp://www.avclub.com/article/daniel-knauf-tells-us-his-plan-for-the-end-of-icar-92877#commentshttp://www.avclub.com/articles/daniel-knauf-opens-up-about-carnivales-long-weird,92780/


3/33

not only the"r relat"onh"% w"th each other, b#t yo#re $"car"o#ly ha$"n! a

relat"onh"% w"th the character thro#!h other character To 'e, torytell"n! "

all abo#t the "nteract"on It an e+c#e to $"car"o#ly l"$e thro#!h other

character That *#t alway been 'y de.n"t"on o) torytell"n! The ret " *#t

an e+c#e to throw all thee character to!ether

/ne th"n! I$e ne$er een, and )elt )ort#nate My )ather had %ol"o a a ch"ld,

and he reco$ered )ro' "t, b#t he had %ot%ol"o yndro'e e wa 32 year old,

and he l"terally woe #% and co#ldnt wal 4e$er waled a!a"n Th" " l"e,

1560 Bac then, ") yo# were "n a wheelcha"r "t l"e, 7/ay, yo#$e been c#t

)ro' the tea' 8o# dont !o to wor 8o#re "n$""ble now9 My dad d"dnt now

that e *#t o%ened #% ho% "n h" ho%"tal bed e wa an "n#rance !#y e

*#t e%t do"n! what he d"d e %#t three o) )o#r "d thro#!h colle!e and 'ade

a really !ood l"$"n! In thoe day, !o"n! o#t w"th 'y dad, he wa *#t 'y dad,

only "n a wheelcha"r ed !o .h"n! and bowl"n!, whate$er he co#ld do, he d"d

B#t wed !o o#t, and %eo%le wo#ld alway react, o there wa alway th" I

re'e'ber he too 'e to the trac one t"'e, to ollywood ar, and ;at"no

were wal"n! #% and br#h"n! #% a!a"nt h"', and I a"d to 'y %arent,

7What !o"n! on, Dad( Why do thee %eo%le ee%9 and he a"d, 7Well, I$e

been told "t !ood l#c9 That ") yo# br#h #% a!a"nt o'eone that

#n)ort#nate, "t !ood l#c A lot o) %eo%le ne$er aw h"', they aw the cha"r

In th" how, when I wa wr"t"n! &a'on, I d"dnt wr"te a l"ttle %eron I wrote a

!#y What I really wanted to do " ha$e %eo%le l"e the bearded lady, l"e ;"la-

three or )o#r e%"ode "n, I alway %"ct#red o'e !#y loo"n! at ;"la, .nd"n!

h"'el) !ett"n! a l"ttle b"t o) a hardon, l"e !o"n!, 7/h 'y


4/33

$i$n5t ,a##. "2e# t" seas"n t%") H"% $i$ ."u $e,i$e %" ."u %e#e

3"in3 t" f",us "n an$ %" ."u %e#e 3"in3 t" ,ut4

DK+A lot o) the' were, "t wa *#t be"n! told >by B/?, 7/ay, we d"dnt do a

well "n eaon one a we e+%ected to do, and were !o"n! to %"c "t #% )or

eaon two, b#t yo#re !o"n! to need to c#t o'e character9 I had %lan )or

the &"a'ee tw"n We %robably wo#ld ha$e been better of cat"n! the' "n

e$en o#t o) 12 I had %lan )or ohn Flec? It wa *#t one o) thoe

th"n! We hadnt wr"tten )or the tw"n We really hadnt !"$en ohn eno#!h to

do ohn Flec " a !reat actor, and he wa wated "n the .rt eaon $ery

t"'e he wa on, he wa terr".c B#t we were *#t ort o) handed "t And yo# *#t

ort o) !o, 7/ay,9 and 'o$e on B#t we had o'e %"c#% later "n the eaon

The heChe character, I )or!et what we called h"' >BertCBertha a!enbec,

%layed by a#l "%%? B#t the heChe character, Mar"lyn Manon wanted to do "t

That )ell thro#!h d#e to a t#%"d et o) '"#ndertand"n! and

'"co''#n"cat"on

There are o'e character that brea o#t, and e$eryone want to wr"te )or

the' A'y >Mad"!an? a Ir" I 'ean, here o'ebody who want e$en "n the

%"lot, and he wa ama(ing Thee th"n! *#t ha%%en "n the co#re o) any "nd

o) TV how &o'e %eo%le brea o#t and wor /ther, not a '#ch

AVC+ Wat %e#e ."u# !lans f"# s"1e "f t"se ,a#a,te#s

%" a$ t" *e ,ut4DK+W"th the tw"n, I wanted the' to "nd o) be l"e adar /e"lly wa

"n)*A*+*, ort o) the harb"n!er o) what co'"n! #% ne+t We ne$er really

!ot to %lay the' that way The"r #e)#lne beca'e le a%%arent There wao'eth"n! cree%y abo#t &"a'ee tw"n Well, e$en tw"n, l"e "n The

+hiningand h"t


5/33

a ,a#a,te# #esistin3 te se#ies5 !#e1ise) H"% $i$ ."u a!!#"a, tat

as %#ite#s4

DK+8o# *#t ha$e to act"$ate h"' "n other way 8o# can be activelyrel#ctant

That the way to do "t and %lay "t-he ne$er %a"$e e activelyt#rn"n!

away )ro' h" det"ny 8o#re h" a#d"ence 8o#re !o"n!, 74o, no, no= #t e"@e

the day Be what yo# can be=9 and he ay"n!, 7I dont want that I cant ha$e

that I cant #%%ort "t Itll "ll 'e9 To 'e, "t %art wr"t"n! and a lar!e %art

act"n!, %er)or'ance And Brother #t"n " a rel#ctant Ant"chr"t e doent

want that 7Tae th" c#% away I dont want to be the de$"l9 And Elancy

>Brown? d"d the a'e th"n! e *#t act"$ely a"d, 74o, no I dont want "t9 &o

when yo# act"$ely try to deny yo#r )a"th, yo# do th"n! l"e Ben doe "n the

%"lot 7/ay, I' o#t o) here,9 and wal"n! away to .nd yo#rel) wal"n! r"!ht

bac "nto "t $ent#ally, yo# reach a %o"nt: 7/ay F"ne What the hell ;et do

th"9 /nce yo# tart r"d"n! the hore "n the d"rect"on "t !o"n!, that where

yo# .nd yo#r %ower

I d"dnt real"@e I wa a TV wr"ter #nt"l I wa wr"t"n! TV, and "t wa l"e, 7/h=9

W"th .l', yo#re wr"t"n! "t, and three year later, "t co'e o#t, and yo# ha$e

no connect"on to "t W"th TV, yo#re wr"t"n! t#f "n the 'orn"n!, and "n the

a)ternoon, they can act#ally be hoot"n!, o "t l"e hero"n )or o'ebody l"e

'e 7There "t "= I *#t wrote that yeterday=9 I d"dnt real"@e that a a TV wr"ter

#nt"l I ended #% there B#t "n the 'eant"'e, %eo%le were l"e 7What abo#t TV(9

And Id be, 7I dont want to wr"te TV, I' a moviewr"ter9 Th"n! l"e that

8o#re act"$elynotdo"n! o'eth"n! That ba"cally how to wr"te "t and how to

act "t

AVC+ Wat %e#e "te# %a.s ."u 1a$e *u$3eta#. sa,#i0,es

f"# seas"n t%"4DK+I th"n between the two th"n! I reco#nted be)ore, wh"ch wa c#tt"n! a )ew

o) the character and then trea'l"n"n! %rod#ct"on and el"'"nat"n! co'%any

'o$e and 'a+"'"@"n! the n#'ber o) day wed be "n"de a o%%oed to

o#t"de, that %retty '#ch .+ed the "#e A lot o) %eo%le ay, 7/h, "t wa the

b#d!et that "lled the how9 And I th"n what "lled the how " *#t the rat"n!

eally Beca#e they e+%ected # to do '#ch better

/ne th"n! that d"d !"$e the' %a#e "n the .rt eaon, not when they .nally

cancelled "t, wa the Internet act"$"ty, beca#e theyd ne$er een anyth"n!

re'otely l"e "t The Internet act"$"ty on Carnivlewa *#t l"e a t#na'", and

they d"dnt now what "t 'eant They had no way o) #ant")y"n! "t, to th" day I

th"n we had G,000 )ollower on the 8ahoo board when the how went of the

a"r I th"n "t #% to H,00 or o'eth"n! now &o the )an bae ha act#ally

!rown "nce we went of the a"r When yo# !o of the a"r, the )an bae nor'ally

doent !row


6/33

B#t I wa on ,olf %ake, and "t )eel l"e we had a b"!!er )an bae then than we

d"d when we went of the a"r

It a how not e$erybody !ot to ee, and they ort o) t#rned each other on to

"t That another a%ect o) %ay cable I' a l"ttle #r%r"ed that nobody ha

%"ced "t #% on ba"c cable or o'ewhere ele More than a l"ttle annoyed that I

cant !et a Bl#ray $er"on o) "t &o'et"'e I )eel l"e were the redheaded

te%ch"ld o) B/, that they want to )or!et they went to the carn"$al and 'o$e

on to other th"n! B#t then I !o to B/, and I ee %eo%le "n the"r oJce, and

they t"ll ha$e the"rCarnivle blanet, and theyre )an, b"! )an w"th"n the

ne+t !enerat"on o) %eo%le who went to wor )or B/, o that %robably not o

tr#e

AVC+ Wen ."u sta#te$ seas"n t%"- te net%"#6 %ante$ a

,"nf#"ntati"n *et%een Ben an$ /ustin) Wat %e#e s"1e "te#

$i#e,ti2es ."u %e#e l""6in3 at f"# tat seas"n- eite# self7i1!"se$ "#

net%"#67i1!"se$4

DK+They de.n"tely wanted Brother #t"n "n the '"+, and we were !"$en that

)ro' the to% 7Brother #t"n and Ben are !o"n! to !o head to head "n the

.nale9 It wa l"e, 78eah, I now /) co#re9

AVC+ Ha$ tat al%a.s *een ."u# !lan4DK+/h yeah We co#ldnt teae that o#t any )#rther than we had They d"dnt

want to %ace "t o#t a l"ttle b"t 'ore, b#t that wa 'ore, we wanted to do 'ore

o) what we were do"n! at the ta"l end o) eaon one We had a lot o) creat"$e

)reedo' on the )ront "de, b#t on the bac "de, o'et"'e wed hoot th"n!,

and theyd !o, 7/h, th" need to be rehot,9 or 7Were !o"n! to c#t theecene9 When I !et "nto the horror a%ect, they were really #eay abo#t I

had to .!ht l"e hell )or the 'a e%"ode, and "t wa a b"! .!ht I re'e'ber

ay"n!, 7Th" " a horror how Th" " "n the horror !enre,9 and theyre !o"n!,

7That not the way we ee "t It dra'a9 74o Come on-9

They wo#ld alway %#ll bac on th"n! l"e that cene where Brother #t"n had

that .t "n )ront o) Balth# >al%h Wa"te? and Ir" where he on the Koor, he

!ot the blac eye and h"t And Id act#ally wr"tten "n, I wanted to !"$e h"'

baboon teeth I wanted act#ally to ha$e h"' o%en h" 'o#th and ha$e th"

'o#th )#ll o) )#c"n! baboon teeth ;"e b"!, yellow, ugh, totally


7/33

'#ch 'ore horr".c than what they c#t "t bac to Mot o) the creat"$e control or

co'%ro'"e ha%%ened a)ter we hot

AVC+ We#e te#e an. ,"i,es tat te net%"#6 i1!"se$ tat ."u tin6

a,tuall. u#t te s"%4 Be,ause te tin3s ."u5#e tal6in3 a*"ut #i3t

n"% a#e 1atte#s "f $e3#ee) Was te#e an.tin38

DK+That really )#ced #( >a#e? 4o Id l"e to co'e #% w"th o'eth"n!,

beca#e we all lo$e to %a"nt the networ a bad !#y, b#t I cant th"n o) a

"n!le th"n! I really cant ;a#!h? I) I wa a tocholder at B/, Id be call"n! to!et the"r head e+a'"ned It hard to really reent %eo%le that too that '#ch

o) a lea% )or .nally wa"n! #% "n the 'orn"n! and real"@"n!, 7/h, who d"d I

dr#nd"al lat n"!ht(9 >;a#!h? I cant !et 'ad at the' )or co'"n! to the"r

ene

&"nce there .$e year between eaon two and eaon three, I ecretly "nd

o) wonder, 78o# now, we co#ld %"c the tory #% All o#r actor wo#ld be


8/33

older9 $en ") Ben wa, beca#e Ben !et really h#rt We tart o#t eaon

three, Ben " really l"$"n! "n that n"che where Mana!e'ent wa l"$"n!, and he

"nd o) )#ced that #% Brother #t"n " "'"larly )#ced #% It wa hard l"$"n!,

too 8o# looed older &o I' th"n"n!, 7We act#ally co#ld %"c "t #%9

AVC+ H"% 1u, $i$ ."u tell te a,t"#s a*"ut tei# ulti1atea#,- !a#ti,ula#l. Clea DuVall4DK+%a!ebrea?

AVC+ Seas"n t%" 1"2es at a 1u, faste# ,li!) Y"u sai$ s"1e "f tat

%as *e,ause ."u ,"n$ense$ &( e!is"$es "f st"#. int" &') Wat %e#es"1e "f te ,"i,es ."u a$ t" 1a6e al"n3 te %a. t" 1a6e it 1"2e

1"#e 9ui,6l.4

DK+ We had th" "ncred"ble r#nner where they .nd ;od@ body, and no one

now the "t#at"on w"th Ben And Tracy Tor' >a wr"ter on the how?, th" wa

ort o) h" drea' And "t t#rn o#t >;od@? body ha been They t"ll 'eet #%

w"th that other carn"$al, and theyre ay"n! he, l"e, the body o) o'e

archd#e It one o) thoe th"n! they #ed to do "n carn"$al, where they ay

"t the body o) ohn W"le Booth, b#t "t )#c"n! ;od@, and "t a !la coJn

>;a#!h? And theyre l"e 7/h 'y


9/33

are tand"n! there ha$"n! th" con$erat"on, and r"!ht at the end o) the

con$erat"on, yo# hear th" crac, and the d"rt !oe 7Thwoo'%=9 >;a#!h?

I re'e'ber that a be"n! a ort o) r#nner We were !o"n! to %lay that whole

th"n! o) ;"la try"n! to %ro$e they had '#rdered ;od@, and br"n! the' to *#t"ce

at the wa!on &o we had to abandon that whole th"n!

AVC+ Wat %e#e ."u# !lans f"# L"$:4DK+ onetly, "t wo#ldnt ha$e wored The %lan I had )or ;od@ " that he wo#ld

cont"n#e all alon! to be er$"n! the wron! 'ater I alway had an "dea that at

the $ery end, he ha th" ort o) Alec rat"n!? record, o%en"n! e%"ode

Then "t went >'ae decl"n"n! no"e?, o we )elt doo'ed e$ery day Wherea

other how, two or three e%"ode "n, B/ wo#ld ha$e thee h#!e

anno#nce'ent: 7Were only three e%"ode "n, and we$e already ordered

another eaon9 We d"dnt !et that &o we .n"hed the .rt eaon, and wewere wa"t"n! and wa"t"n! and wa"t"n! It want #nt"l l"terally al'ot the lat

%o"ble '"n#te that they co#ld contract#ally do "t, we !ot that order )or

eaon two

Then a)ter we .n"hed eaon two, I had ho%e, b#t "t really want #nt"l they

called They called and a"d, 7;oo, we want to do a twoho#r 'o$"e to wra% #%

all the t#f that hant been wra%%ed #%,9 and I a"d, 7I cant co'%re GN

ho#r o) tory "nto a twoho#r wra%#%9 And that not why %eo%le watch the

.nale anyway I 'ean, no one !"$e a h"t abo#t how the tory end They !"$e

a h"t abo#t what the character do, the "nteract"on I *#t )elt l"e, 7Why dont

we *#t wr"te a yno%" and %#bl"h "t( It wo#ld be a !rat")y"n!9

>The 'o$"e? wa on the table )or a l"ttle wh"le, and I too a b"! old %a on "t It

want beca#e I wa hold"n! o#t or anyth"n! It 'ade no ene to 'e It t"ll

doent I dont e$en now how I wo#ld do "t That ca'e and went real #"c

Then they were 'o$"n! on to other th"n!, b#t "n the 'eant"'e, h"t, they were

!ett"n! death threat The )an went a%eh"t Tho#and o) letter They


10/33

crahed the"r er$er '#lt"%le t"'e When they 'ade the anno#nce'ent,

%eo%le went co'%letely o#t o) the"r '"nd /#r )an were *#t ardent It wa

h"tty 8o#re "tt"n! there, and yo#re "n the '"ddle o) a boo, and o'ebody

co'e and tae the boo away That 'ade the' cra@y B#t what are yo# !o"n!

to do(

AVC+ In seas"n t%"- ."u a2e 1"#e #efe#en,es t" tin3s li6e Rennes7

le7C;teau an$ te #".al *l""$line "f C#ist) Di$ ."u a2e !lans t"

in,"#!"#ate /esus int" ."u# "2e#all 1.t"l"3.4

DK+e# wa an A$atar, o no I 'ean, ye, he %art o) the bloodl"ne, b#t he

not The way I .!#re, A$atar are l"e anybody 8o# can ha$e a really !ood

a!entO yo# can ha$e a really h"tty a!ent There are really!ood A$atar, and

there are "nd o) h"tty A$atar &c#dder wa a really h"tty, hal)a A$atar

e# had "t !o"n! on Eal"!#la wa a !reat A$atar o) darne e had h" h"t

to!ether /ther than that, no

Where I wa !o"n! w"th that wa "n the th"rd eaon, we were !o"n! to end #%

"n World War II, w"th a earch )or "n)or'at"on to br"n! down Brother #t"n on

the carn"$al "de, o the carn"$al wo#ld act#ally ret#rn to "t root Then >Ben

and &a'on? ha$e to %#ll e$eryone to!ether &ort o) a "'%le, 7A$en!er

ae'ble=9 In the th"rd eaon, we were ort o) reae'bl"n!, and then the

)ollow"n! eaon, the carn"$al wo#ld !o on to#r That to#r wo#ld tae the'

thro#!h %lace where theyre !ather"n! th"n! they need "n order to !o to

battle Brother #t"n " #%%ort"n! the B#nd e " #% a!a"nt >the P& war

efort? e "nd o) l"e the $o"ce o) Father Eo#!hl"n, l"terally Then I th"n the

.nal e%"ode really wa abo#t the' try"n! to ee% the bo'b )ro' !o"n! of

#t try"n! to to% th" th"n! )ro' ha%%en"n! And yo# cant

AVC+ In "te# inte#2ie%s- ."u52e sai$ f#ee %ill $"es e


11/33

techn"cally "t all wr"tten, yo# chooe to do th"n! 8o# dont now yo# dont

ha$e a cho"ce I) yo# chooe to do bad th"n!, 'aybe yo#re !o"n! to be held

acco#ntable )or the' ") there an a)terl")e 8o#re t"ll re%on"ble )or be"n!

bad To "t there and !o >dead%an? 78e, well, "t 'y det"ny to be a %r"c,9

>;a#!h? that doent c#t any "ce

&o "n a ene, I th"n the whole th"n! " abo#t det"ny, b#t the character "n the

conte+t o) that are t"ll 'a"n! cho"ce baed on who they are, what the

c"rc#'tance are, who to bene.t, who to be h#rt 8o# *#t do the bet yo#

can w"th what yo#$e !ot at a !"$en t"'e It ba"cally a ta%etry, and were all

tand"n! w"th o#r noe a!a"nt "t, and what we ee are a b#nch o) thread We

cant 'ae o#t th" b"! h#nt"n! cene that ") we te% 30 yard bac, wed be

able to ee I th"n each one o) # !et o cloe to what !o"n! on that we

cant ee "t I th"n e$eryth"n! " %rewr"tten 8o# can try to eca%e yo#r

det"ny, b#t e$ent#ally, yo#re !o"n! to end #% do"n! what yo#re det"ned to

do And that carr"e thro#!h 8o# ee "t contantly thro#!ho#t Carnivle B#t

that *#t th" wr"ter world$"ew

AVC+ Wat were."u# !lans f"# %at %"ul$ a2e ,"1e in

te f"u# un1a$e seas"ns4DK+;"e I a"d, I' not !o"n! to cla"' I new the '"n#te deta"l &eaon three "

.$e year later We .nd oney-he #r$"$ed h" !#nhot wo#nd and " %"tch"n!

)or a %ro)e"onal baeball tea' " w")e >;"bby? " a ty%"cal baeball w")e bac

"n 35 The carn"$al " co'%letely %l"t #%O e$erybody !one the"r e%arate

way The only $et"!e o) the carn"$al a "t wa " Ben and &a'on, and theyre

wor"n! at another carn"$al, t"ll on Mana!e'ent tra"l

Then on the Brother #t"n "de, we .nd he beco'e th" "ncred"bly %ol"t"cally

"nK#ent"al rad"o %reacher And there Ir" and &o.e, and theyre both "n th"

.!ht e a hell, al'ot, and thee two wo'en are "n a %ower tr#!!le o$er

who controll"n! Brother #t"n &o.e " Brother #t"n w")e /) co#re, he

h" da#!hter, b#t hedoent now that +henow that &he co#ld br"n! h"'

down %retty ea"ly, b#t he a)ra"d o) herel) now, too

Then we "ntrod#ce, "n the $ery .rt e%"ode, yo# ee th" Gyearold "d co'e

r#nn"n! #% and h#!!"n! Brother #t"n, ay"n! 7Daddy9 I th" Brother #t"n

ch"ld, or " th" Ben ch"ld, beca#e they both had relat"on w"th &o.e( That

wo#ld "nd o) tee # of to the econd one That wo#ld tae # thro#!h the war

And then the .rt hal) o) that wo#ld be, 7A$en!er ae'ble,9 w"nd o) war

call"n! the' to!ether, !otta !et th" !ro#% bac to!ether a!a"n Ben l"e,

7Th" "nt *#t abo#t 'e Th" " abo#t #9 And %#ll"n! e$erybody o#t o) the"r

l"$e and anwer"n! th" call, and 'o$"n! "nto !o"n! to #ro%e to try to ac#"re

thee doc#'ent or I new they were !o"n! to be tal"'an What theyre


12/33

!o"n! to need when theyre en!a!ed "n th" war Then thered be a

con)rontat"on o) o'e ort at the end o) eaon )o#r

Then ta"n! # to the end, "t all abo#t the >ato'"c? bo'b It all abo#t the

Manhattan ro*ect and worry"n! abo#t "t, .nd"n! o#t what "t " The ;a#!h?

AVC+ Ha2e ."u e2e# ,"nsi$e#e$ t#.in3 t" $" it as a n"2el "#

a ,"1i, *""64DK+Eontantly 8eah Mar$el, we had "t all et #% At one %o"nt, they wanted to

!o )orward and do a er"e o) !ra%h"c no$el, and they *#t co#ldnt t#rn the

corner w"th B/ &"nce then, yeah, I$e con"dered "t B#t one o) the th"n! that

'ae 'e a l"ttle cra@y abo#t ollywood ", theyre "d"ot when "t co'e to

the"r contract#al t#f I) I wr"te a no$el, "t l"e ando' o#e %#bl"he the

no$el, co%yr"!ht "t, b#t when yo# do b#"ne "n ollywood, they ay,

7$eryth"n! "n th" th"n!, "n all )or', "n all %otent"al )or' "n$ented and#n"n$ented9 The lan!#a!e " dracon"an= 7thro#!ho#t the #n"$ere We own

e$eryth"n! "n yo#r head We own e$eryth"n!9 And "t l"e, 7I) yo# own

e$eryth"n!, at leat e+%lo"t thoe r"!ht, %leae Eo#ld yo# %leae e+%lo"t the

r"!ht( And ") yo#re not !o"n! to e+%lo"t the r"!ht, can I at leat ha$e the'

bac, o I can e+%lo"t the'(9 It *#t a "lly way o) do"n! b#"ne They do "t

beca#e they can, and that all

;et ay I tae a new%ro*ect "dea to &ony, and they !"$e 'e that lan!#a!e I

!o, 78o# now, th" whole co%yr"!ht"nK#ent"al%ro%erty th"n!, I' not o hot on

that Ill tae le 'oney ") I can reta"n the co%yr"!ht or the anc"llary r"!ht,9

theyd ay, 7Tae a )#c"n! h"e9 I) I !o, 7Well then, Ill tae a h"e I' !o"n! to

!o to Warner Bro9 And Warner Bro ha the eact samecontract#al

lan!#a!e It ba"cally an "lle!al tr#t It l"e the 'ob Art"t are .rt to !"$e

#% "ntellect#al r"!ht to do b#"ne w"th ollywood B#t theyre not r"!ht yo#

!"$e #% "n any other 'ed"#' It B&

Carnivle" one th"n! I hate tell"n! %eo%le I cant I d"d a Q"ctarter

ca'%a"!n )or !lack!$and I had a %eron who donated L1,00, a really
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/fboffo/blackbxx-hauntedhttp://www.kickstarter.com/projects/fboffo/blackbxx-hauntedhttp://www.kickstarter.com/projects/fboffo/blackbxx-hauntedhttp://www.kickstarter.com/projects/fboffo/blackbxx-hauntedhttp://www.kickstarter.com/projects/fboffo/blackbxx-haunted


13/33

!enero# donat"on, and I had o'eth"n! "n there, the Q"ctarterty%e t#f, 7Ill

tae yo# o#t )or d"nner9 And I d"d, I too h"' o#t )or d"nner It wa h" w")e

b"rthday, and he a"d, 7Wo#ld yo# '"nd end"n! 'y w")e an e'a"l( &hed !et a

b"! "c o#t o) "t9 And I at down, and I tho#!ht, 7I' !o"n! to !et th" !#y o

la"d9 e wa !o"n! to !"$e "t )or her b"rthday or Ehr"t'a or o'eth"n!, and

he wanted 'e to wr"te a note I at down, and I *#t wrote a cene w"th oneyand &a'on at Ehr"t'at"'e, and "t wa l"e %#tt"n! on the 'ot co')ortable

%a"r o) hoe I$e e$er had "n 'y l")e It wa l"e, >e+hale? 7I cant bel"e$e how

!ood "t )eel to be wal"n! aro#nd "n thee hoe9 The d"alo!#e *#t %"lled

o#t, and they were al"$e and threed"'en"onal The character are t"ll al"$e,

and they ha$e o '#ch to ay, and "t wa *oy)#l wr"t"n! "t, and then end"n!

th" to another %eron who !ot "''ene %lea#re )ro' "t And I' !o"n!,

>d"bel"e$"n! %a#e? 7What the )#c( /ay It d"dnt 'ae ene to %end L3

'"ll"on an e%"ode &o let do a !ra%h"c no$el ;et tell the tory=9 B#t theyre

on to other toy now It l"e do"n! b#"ne w"th that "d down the treet

whoe %arent !"$e h"' really b"tch"n toy, and hed *#t lea$e the' broen "nthe bacyard It 'ae 'e cra@y, ollywood

AVC+ Wat $" ."u tin6 it %"ul$ ta6e t" 1a6e te1

inte#este$4DK+I th"n o'ebody who wa a #%er Carnivle )an who went to wor )or B/

!o"n!, 7I' o e+c"ted to wor )or the networ that d"d Carnivle,9 and *#t

be"n! a $"ce %re"dent or %re"dent and cha'%"on"n! the "dea o) "t Itd %robably

*#'% bac "n There alo the %o"b"l"ty, too, that I 'ay be able to !o and

a%%roach the' w"th another %ro*ect they really want to do, and I '"!ht be able

to ay, 7;oo, a a cond"t"on to the deal, Id l"e yo# to ell 'e the no$el"@at"onr"!ht9 There alway horetrad"n! that can ha%%en "n the )#t#re 8o# *#t

ne$er now Maybe "n a )ew year, o'ebody w"ll a%%roach the' and ay,

7ey, let 'o$e )orward9 It aw)#l not ha$"n! "t "n yo#r own hand To be

de%endent on )ate Wh"' Whate$er

AVC+ Is te#e a ,e#tain tin3 ."u a$ #eall. %ante$ t" s"% in t"se

last f"u# seas"ns tat ."u5#e sa$ ."u ne2e# 3"t t" $"4

DK+It the )#ll co%e o) the "dea, the b"! "dea The b"! "dea that we were

ch"ldren #nt"l we detonated thee two bo'b o#t "n the deert We alway ay,

7/h, "nt "t a horr"ble th"n!(/h, "t the n#clear a!e 4ow we wretle w"thdetroy"n! o#rel$e a a %ec"e,9 and "t looed #%on a a co'%letely

ne!at"$e th"n! B#t "n a way, I loo at "t a when we were able to %#t away

ch"ld"h th"n! That when we !ot o#r .rt a%art'ent That, %eo%le tarted

to !o, 7ey, wa"t a econd9 I th"n r"!ht #% #nt"l that 'o'ent, the "dea that we

co#ld detroy o#rel$e wa ab#rd 4ow we tae "t )or !ranted We tart to

loo at "t, 7Well h"t, we !ot the hole "n the o@one layer9 We beco'e aware


14/33

that were ca%able o) e+"tent"al detr#ct"on, and I th"n that %art o) !row"n!

#% a a %ec"e

I 'ean, ho'o a%"en roc When yo# ee a b#nch o) %eo%le try"n! to %#h a

whale of a beach, I !o, 7/ay, what other )#c"n! %ec"e doe that(9 That *#t

'ae 'e )eel l"e we are d"ferent We arent a %art o) the an"'al "n!do'

We$e !ot o'eth"n! !o"n! on 8eah, were ca%able o) horr"ble th"n! Were

ca%able o) holoca#t B#t were alo ca%able o) #ch a'a@"n! th"n! To 'e,

the e+%lod"n! o) the n#clear bo'b wa "n a way a declarat"on o)

"nde%endence )ro' nat#re In a way, to al'ot celebrate "t B#t "t a ca#t"o#

celebrat"on It wo#ld be n"ce to ha$e !otten that "dea all the way o#t there It

d"dnt 'ae "t

FILM

TV CLUB

MUSIC

COMEDY

BOOKS
http://www.avclub.com/film/http://www.avclub.com/tv/http://www.avclub.com/music/http://www.avclub.com/comedy/http://www.avclub.com/books/http://www.avclub.com/film/http://www.avclub.com/tv/http://www.avclub.com/music/http://www.avclub.com/comedy/http://www.avclub.com/books/


15/33

GAMES

AUX

MORE

THE WALKTHROUGH

Daniel Knauf tells us is

!lan f"# te en$

"f Carnivle

ByTodd VanDerWerff

Feb 22, 2013 12:00 AM
http://www.avclub.com/games/http://www.avclub.com/aux/http://www.avclub.com/article/daniel-knauf-tells-us-his-plan-for-the-end-of-icar-92877http://www.avclub.com/features/the-walkthrough/http://www.avclub.com/author/ToddVanDerWerff/http://www.avclub.com/games/http://www.avclub.com/aux/http://www.avclub.com/article/daniel-knauf-tells-us-his-plan-for-the-end-of-icar-92877http://www.avclub.com/features/the-walkthrough/http://www.avclub.com/author/ToddVanDerWerff/


16/33

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Carnivlecreator Daniel Knauf recently sat down with The A.V. Club to talk

through the complete run of the cult HBO series. Part one, which deals with

season one, can be found here. This part deals with season two and his plan for

the four seasons of the show he neer got to make, due to its cancellation.

The A.V. Club: The show has rich interpersonal relationships,

especially with Jonesy and Sofie, or Jonesy and the Dreifuss family,

which have nothin to do with the enre content. !ow did that come

about"
https://www.facebook.com/sharer/sharer.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.avclub.com%2Fr%2F92877fsdhttps://twitter.com/share?text=Daniel%20Knauf%20tells%20us%20his%20plan%20for%20the%20end%20of%20Carniv%C3%A0le&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.avclub.com%2Fr%2F92877tsd&via=TheAVClub&related=TheAVClubhttps://twitter.com/share?text=Daniel%20Knauf%20tells%20us%20his%20plan%20for%20the%20end%20of%20Carniv%C3%A0le&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.avclub.com%2Fr%2F92877tsd&via=TheAVClub&related=TheAVClubhttp://www.avclub.com/article/daniel-knauf-tells-us-his-plan-for-the-end-of-icar-92877#commentshttp://www.avclub.com/articles/daniel-knauf-opens-up-about-carnivales-long-weird,92780/https://www.facebook.com/sharer/sharer.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.avclub.com%2Fr%2F92877fsdhttps://twitter.com/share?text=Daniel%20Knauf%20tells%20us%20his%20plan%20for%20the%20end%20of%20Carniv%C3%A0le&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.avclub.com%2Fr%2F92877tsd&via=TheAVClub&related=TheAVClubhttp://www.avclub.com/article/daniel-knauf-tells-us-his-plan-for-the-end-of-icar-92877#commentshttp://www.avclub.com/articles/daniel-knauf-opens-up-about-carnivales-long-weird,92780/


17/33

Daniel #nauf:Ill watch!ord Of The "ings,and he has to get the ring, hes got to

throw it into Mordor, but who gives a shit without the relationship with Sam At

the end o! the da", all o! that big sweeping stu!! is #ust an e$cuse !or interaction

between characters. %or me&especiall" with TV, because TV is a reall" instant

medium, and "oure having these people in "our living room&its not onl" their

relationship with each other, but "oure vicariousl" having a relationship with the

characters through other characters. To me, stor"telling is all about the interaction.

Its an e$cuse to vicariousl" live through other characters. Thats #ust alwa"s been

m" de!inition o! stor"telling. The rest is #ust an e$cuse to throw all these characters

together.

'ne thing Ive never seen, and !elt !ortunate( M" !ather had polio as a child, and

he recovered !rom it, but he had post)polio s"ndrome. *e was + "ears old, and he

literall" wo-e up and couldnt wal-. ever wal-ed again. This is li-e, /012. 3ac-

then, i! "ou were in a wheelchair its li-e, 4'-a", "ouve been cut !rom the team.

5ou dont go to wor-. 5oure invisible now.6 M" dad didnt -now that. *e #ust

opened up shop in his hospital bed. *e was an insurance gu". *e #ust -ept doing

what he did. *e put three o! !our -ids through college and made a reall" good

living. In those da"s, going out with m" dad, he was #ust m" dad, onl" in a

wheelchair. *ed go !ishing and bowling, whatever he could do, he did. 3ut wed go

out, and people would alwa"s react, so there was alwa"s this( I remember he too-

me to the trac- one time, to *oll"wood 7ar-, and 8atinos were wal-ing up and

brushing up against him, and I said to m" parents, 49hats going on, :ad 9h" do

these people -eep(6 and he said, 49ell, Ive been told its good luc-.6 That i! "ou

brush up against someone thats un!ortunate, its good luc-. A lot o! people never

saw him, the" saw the chair.

In this show, when I was writing Samson, I didnt write a little person. I wrote a

gu". 9hat I reall" wanted to do is have people li-e the bearded lad", li-e 8ila&


18/33

three or !our episodes in, I alwa"s pictured some gu" loo-ing at 8ila, !inding

himsel! getting a little bit o! a hard)on, li-e going, 4'h m" ;od, what am I thin-ing and Iris where hes on the !loor, hes got

the blac- e"es and shit. And Id actuall" written in, I wanted to give him baboon

teeth. I wanted actuall" to have him open his mouth and have this mouth !ull o!

!uc-ing baboon teeth. 8i-e big, "ellow, ugh, totall" ;eorge omero, and it was li-e,

4o, were not doing that. o, its not going to happen.6 Again, I cant sa" whether

that would have been over the top. Ma"be it would have been. It probabl" would

have been. 3ut at the time, he", I would alwa"s be pushing those horror, those

genre things. 9e were writing about demons and angels here, lets show some

!lash, "ou -now The cr"ing @esus with the blood, and we had, li-e, maggots


23/33

coming out. The producers cut was much more horri!ic than what the" cut it bac-

to. Most o! the creative control or compromises happened a!ter we shot.

AVC: $ere there any choices that the networ) imposed that you thin)actually hurt the show" 'ecause the thins you%re tal)in about riht

now are matters of deree. $as there anythin+

D#: That reall" !uc-ed us =7ause.> o. Id li-e to come up with something,

because we all love to paint the networ-s as bad gu"s, but I cant thin- o! a single

thing. I reall" cant. ;iven how demanding and challenging the material was, the"

gave us a surprising amount o! creative latitude on this show. Much more,

probabl", than we deserved, especiall" given our ratings. So *3' trul" was what we

thin- o! *3'. At least at that time, and even toda". The" serve as the last bastion

!or artistic !reedom, to some degree. 3ut other than the !act that we had to cut a !ew

characters out, and that hurt, it certainl" wasnt crippling to the show. It ma"be

even streamlined it. Ma"be made it a little bit better. It certainl" snapped things

into !ocus. So no, not reall". The onl" thing the" did that was terrible was cancel it.

=8aughs.>

And I remember writing to =*3' e$ec> Chris =Albrecht>. I wrote him a long letter. I

said, 47lease reconsider this, because I thin- the ne$t season is going to be the

season.6 3ecause our numbers were trending upward. I thin- we beatDeadwoodin

our !inale. It !elt li-e it was poised to( having been an old insurance man, I was

prett" good with trends. I reall" was sad to not have it go !orward. Its still sad.

I wrote a letter to the !ans when we got cancelled, and I remember writing, 4I -now

a lot o! "ou are going to write angr" letters to *3', but -eep in mind that no one

else would have done this show.6 So its reall" hard to be, 4'h, thosebastards. 9hat

a bunch o! !uc-ers.6 Theres no wayan"one else would have done this. 9ith

someone who had never written a TV show be!ore To ma-e me an e$ecutive


24/33

producer and give me the -ind o! creative control I had, even though I had to -ind

o! earn it and -eep it, the !act that the" did that was so great. And the mone"< %uc-,

this was the most e$pensive show on the air at the time, I thin- b" !ar. I thin- the"

were spending somewhere in the neighborhood o! +.G million per episode, which

toda" is nothing( 9ell, not nothing. That would be a lot now. 3ut then, it was

insane. It was almost irresponsible o! them. =8aughs.> I! I was a stoc-holder at

*3', Id be calling to get their head e$amined. Its hard to reall" resent people that

too- that much o! a leap !or !inall" wa-ing up in the morning and reali?ing, 4'h,

who did I drun-)dial last night6 =8aughs.> I cant get mad at them !or coming to

their senses.

Since theres !ive "ears between season two and season three, I secretl" -ind o!

wonder, 45ou -now, we could pic- the stor" up. All our actors would be older.6

ven i! 3en was, because 3en gets reall" hurt. 9e start out season three, 3en is

reall" living in that niche where Management was living, and hes -ind o! !uc-ed

that up. 3rother @ustin is similarl" !uc-ed up. It was hard living, too. 5ou loo-ed

older. So Im thin-ing, 49e actuall" could pic- it up.6

AVC: !ow much did you tell the actors about their ultimate arc,

particularly Clea DuVall"

D#:;enerall", actors are not as interested in where the character is going in the

long term. The"re more interested in where the character has been, because thats

the main thing o! their per!ormance. I suppose "ou would behave ver" di!!erentl" i!

"ou -new what "our !uture was, and that de!initel" would be ine$plicable to theaudience. 49h"s he avoiding air travel 9hat possible reason could he have6 So

actors, I thin-, are !ocused more on 49here has m" character been6

I dont remember tal-ing to an" o! the actors about where the"re ultimatel" going

to end up, because that didnt interest them. The" didnt need that. 9hat the"


25/33

reall" needed was, 4'-a", whats m" relationship with m" mother 9hen did this

happen6 All those things. And all that stu!! was in the =series> bible. Id given them

all ver" detailed character descriptions o! their pasts, and the" would !ill in the

blan-s and write their own character descriptions, and do what the" do as part o!

their process.

=pagebrea->

AVC: Season two moves at a much faster clip. ou said some of that was

because you condensed - episodes of story into -/. $hat were some of

the choices you had to ma)e alon the way to ma)e it move more

0uic)ly"

D#:9e had this incredible runner where the" !ind 8od?s bod", and no one -nows

the situation with 3en. And Trac" TormJ =a writer on the show>, this was sort o! his

dream. And it turns out =8od?s> bod" has been( The" still meet up with that other

carnival, and the"re sa"ing hes, li-e, the bod" o! some archdu-e. Its one o! those

things the" used to do in carnivals, where the" sa" its the bod" o! @ohn 9il-es

3ooth, but its !uc-ing 8od?, and its a glass co!!in. =8aughs.> And the"re li-e 4'h

m" ;od, hes dead


26/33

I remember that as being a sort o! runner. 9e were going to pla" that whole thing

o! 8ila tr"ing to prove the" had murdered 8od?, and bring them to #ustice at the

wagon. So we had to abandon that whole thing.

AVC: $hat were your plans for 1od2"

D#: *onestl", it wouldnt have wor-ed. The plan I had !or 8od? is that he would

continue all along to be serving the wrong master. I alwa"s had an idea that at the

ver" end, he has this sort o! Alec ;uinness at the end o!Bridge On The "ier

Kwaimoment where he reali?es !or the !irst time, 4'h ;od, what have I done6 and

is instrumental in saving 3en. 3ut that would be si$ seasons down the line, and we

wanted to -eep him alive as an instrument o! evil inside the carnival, and ma"be

moving over to 3rother @ustins side and !eeding 3rother @ustin intelligence and so

!orth. 3ac- to almost a sp". 3ut it wasnt to be. 9e #ust used his ghost.

AVC: $hen did you first start to et the sense that season two miht be

the end of the road"

D#: ot until well a!ter we completed it. 8et me put it this wa"D 9e !elt doomed

!rom episode three on, because the numbers were not coming up. The numbers

were going down. 9e had this ama?ing, set =ratings> records, opening episode.

Then it went =ma-es declining noise>, so we !elt doomed ever" da". 9hereas other

shows, two or three episodes in, *3' would have these huge announcementsD

49ere onl" three episodes in, and weve alread" ordered another season.6 9e

didnt get that. So we !inished the !irst season, and we were waiting and waiting

and waiting. It wasnt until literall" almost the last possible minute that the" could

contractuall" do it, we got that order !or season two.

Then a!ter we !inished season two, I had hopes, but it reall" wasnt until the" called.

The" called and said, 48oo-, we want to do a two)hour movie to wrap up all the


27/33

stu!! that hasnt been wrapped up,6 and I said, 4I cant compress FK hours o! stor"

into a two)hour wrap)up.6 And thats not wh" people watch the !inale an"wa". I

mean, no one gives a shit about how the stor" ends. The" give a shit about what the

characters do, the interactions. I #ust !elt li-e, 49h" dont we #ust write a s"nopsis

and publish it It would be as grati!"ing.6

=The movie> was on the table !or a little while, and I too- a big old pass on it. It

wasnt because I was holding out or an"thing. It made no sense to me. It still

doesnt. I dont even -now how I would do it. That came and went real Euic-. Then

the" were moving on to other things, but in the meantime, shit, the" were getting

death threats. The !ans went apeshit. Thousands o! letters. The" crashed their

servers multiple times. 9hen the" made the announcement, people went

completel" out o! their minds. 'ur !ans were #ust ardent. It was shitt". 5oure

sitting there, and "oure in the middle o! a boo-, and somebod" comes and ta-es

the boo- awa". That made them cra?". 3ut what are "ou going to do

AVC: (n season two, you have more references to thins li)e 3ennes*le*

Ch4teau and the royal bloodline of Christ. Did you have plans to

incorporate Jesus into your overall mytholoy"

D#:@esus was an Avatar, so no. I mean, "es, hes part o! the bloodline, but hes

not( The wa" I !igure, Avatars are li-e an"bod". 5ou can have a reall" good agentL

"ou can have a reall" shitt" agent. There are reallygood Avatars, and there are -ind

o! shitt" Avatars. Scudder was a reall" shitt", hal!)ass Avatar. @esus had it going on.

Caligula was a great Avatar o! dar-ness. *e had his shit together. 'ther than that,no.

9here I was going with that was in the third season, we were going to end up in

9orld 9ar II, with a search !or in!ormation to bring down 3rother @ustin on the

carnival side, so the carnival would actuall" return to its roots. Then =3en and


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Samson> have to pull ever"one together. Sort o! a simple, 4Avengers assemble. *es -ind o! li-e the voice o! %ather

Coughlin, literall". Then I thin- the !inal episode reall" was about them tr"ing to

-eep the bomb !rom going o!!. @ust tr"ing to stop this thing !rom happening. And

"ou cant.

AVC: (n other interviews, you%ve said free will does e5ist in this

universe, but the characters seem to et 6er)ed down the path they%re

supposed to o down anyway.

D#:7ersonall", I thin- we have the illusion o! !ree will. Its li-e, sa" I pic- this

boo- up, and I read to here. I dont -now an"thing past here. 9ell, that doesnt

mean all this doesnt e$ist. The wa" the universe ma-es sense to me is that I cant

imagine the universe turning on a dime, li-e theres two entire, separate !utures

because I decided to have donuts this morning instead o! an gg McMu!!in. That

universe ma-es no sense to me. *ow can "ou have precognition in there *ow can

"ou have an instinct o! whats going to happen ne$t, i! the entire thing changes

because a butter!l" got sEuashed on a windshield or some bullshit li-e that I thin-

the whole thing is #ust written out prett" much li-e a boo-. 3ut the thing is, #ust li-e

a boo-, "ou have the illusion o! moving through time, even though time e$ists.

ven i! its alread" been written, we have the illusion o! !ree will. And "oure

accountable !or it. I mean, #ust because technicall" its all written, "ou choose to do

things. 5ou dont -now "ou dont have a choice. I! "ou choose to do bad things,

ma"be "oure going to be held accountable !or them i! theres an a!terli!e. 5oure

still responsible !or being bad. To sit there and go =deadpan> 45es, well, its m"

destin" to be a pric-,6 =8aughs.> that doesnt cut an" ice.


29/33

So in a sense, I thin- the whole thing is about destin", but the characters in the

conte$t o! that are still ma-ing choices based on who the" are, what the

circumstances are, whos to bene!it, whos to be hurt. 5ou #ust do the best "ou can

with what "ouve got at a given time. Its basicall" a tapestr", and were all standing

with our noses against it, and what we see are a bunch o! threads. 9e cant ma-e

out this big hunting scene that i! we step +2 "ards bac-, wed be able to see. I thin-

each one o! us gets so close to whats going on that we cant see it. I thin-

ever"thing is pre)written. 5ou can tr" to escape "our destin", but eventuall", "oure

going to end up doing what "oure destined to do. And that carries through. 5ou see

it constantl" throughout )arni*le. 3ut thats #ust this writers worldview.

AVC: $hat wereyour plans for what would have come in the four

unmade seasons"

D#:8i-e I said, Im not going to claim I -new the minute detail. Season three is

!ive "ears later. 9e !ind @ones"&he survived his gunshot wound and is pitching !or

a pro!essional baseball team. *is wi!e =8ibb"> is a t"pical baseball wi!e bac- in +0.

The carnival is completel" split upL ever"bod"s gone their separate wa"s. The onl"

vestige o! the carnival as it was is 3en and Samson, and the"re wor-ing at another

carnival, still on Managements trail.

Then on the 3rother @ustin side, we !ind hes become this incredibl" politicall"

in!luential radio preacher. And theres Iris and So!ie, and the"re both in this !ight.

*es a shell, almost, and these two women are in a power struggle over whos

controlling 3rother @ustin. So!ie is 3rother @ustins wi!e. '! course, shes hisdaughter, but hedoesnt -now that.(he-nows that. She could bring him down

prett" easil", but shes a!raid o! hersel! now, too.

Then we introduce, in the ver" !irst episode, "ou see this F)"ear)old -id come

running up and hugging 3rother @ustin, sa"ing 4:add".6 Is this 3rother @ustins


30/33

child, or is this 3ens child, because the" both had relations with So!ie That would

-ind o! tee us o!! to the second one. That would ta-e us through the war. And then

the !irst hal! o! that would be, 4Avengers assemble,6 winds o! war calling them

together, gotta get this group bac- together again. 3ens li-e, 4This isnt #ust about

me. This is about us.6 And pulling ever"bod" out o! their lives and answering this

call, and moving into going to urope to tr" to acEuire these documents or( I -new

the" were going to be talismans. 9hat the"re going to need when the"re engaged

in this war. Then thered be a con!rontation o! some sort at the end o! season !our.

Then ta-ing us to the end, its all about the =atomic> bomb. Its all about the

Manhattan 7ro#ect and worr"ing about it, !inding out what it is. The ;ermans have

a competing pro#ect, and tr"ing to stop it. Tr"ing to stop the bomb !rom happening,

because in 3ens mind, detonation o! the atom bomb is the end o! the world. 9hat

he doesnt reali?e is that its #ust the end o! hisworld. To him, its an end to AvatarsL

its an end to ever"thing. 3ut hes misinterpreted it. *es interpreted it as the end o!

the world. *e thin-s hes saving the world, but what he learns be!ore the end is

that, 4I have to let this happen, because i! I dont let this happen, man-ind will

remain in a state o! adolescence.6 *e learns thats reall" wh" So!ie is called the

'mega. She is the onl" !emale, the last Avatar. 9hat its all leading up to is two

Avatars, she and 3en having this child. The" actuall" have to sacri!ice this child in

the blast. That was m" cra?" notion.

ow I have to -ill "ou because I told "ou. =8aughs.>

AVC: !ave you ever considered tryin to do it as a novel or a comicboo)"

D#:Constantl". 5eah. Marvel, we had it all set up. At one point, the" wanted to go

!orward and do a series o! graphic novels, and the" #ust couldnt turn the corner

with *3'. Since then, "eah, Ive considered it. 3ut one o! the things that ma-es me


31/33

a little cra?" about *oll"wood is, the"re idiots when it comes to their contractual

stu!!. I! I write a novel, its li-e andom *ouse publishes the novel, cop"rights it,

but when "ou do business in *oll"wood, the" sa", 4ver"thing in this thing, in all

!orms, in all potential !orms invented and uninvented(6 The language is

draconian< 4(throughout the universe. 9e own ever"thing in "our head. 9e own

ever"thing.6 And its li-e, 4I! "ou own ever"thing, at least e$ploit those rights,

please. Could "ou please e$ploit the rights And i! "oure not going to e$ploit the

rights, can I at least have them bac-, so I can e$ploit them6 Its #ust a sill" wa" o!

doing business. The" do it because the" can, and thats all.

8ets sa" I ta-e a new)pro#ect idea to Son", and the" give me that language. I go,

45ou -now, this whole cop"right)in!luential)propert" thing, Im not so hot on that.

Ill ta-e less mone" i! I can retain the cop"right or the ancillar" rights,6 the"d sa",

4Ta-e a !uc-ing hi-e.6 I! I go, 49ell then, Ill ta-e a hi-e. Im going to go to 9arner

3ros.6 And 9arner 3ros. has the e-act samecontractual language. Its basicall" an

illegal trust. Its li-e the mob. Artists are !irst to give up intellectual rights to do

business with *oll"wood. 3ut the"re not rights "ou give up in an" other medium.

Its 3S.

)arni*leis one thing. I hate telling people I cant( I did a Nic-starter campaign

!or BlackB--,and I had a person who donated /,H22, a reall" generous donation,

and I had something in there, the Nic-starter)t"pe stu!!, 4Ill ta-e "ou out !or

dinner.6 And I did, I too- him out !or dinner. It was his wi!es birthda", and he said,

49ould "ou mind sending m" wi!e an email Shed get a big -ic- out o! it.6 And I

sat down, and I thought, 4Im going to get this gu" so laid.6 *e was going to give it

!or her birthda" or Christmas or something, and he wanted me to write a note. I sat

down, and I #ust wrote a scene with @ones" and Samson at Christmastime, and it

was li-e putting on the most com!ortable pair o! shoes Ive ever had in m" li!e. It

was li-e, =e$hales> 4I cant believe how good it !eels to be wal-ing around in these
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/fboffo/blackbxx-hauntedhttp://www.kickstarter.com/projects/fboffo/blackbxx-hauntedhttp://www.kickstarter.com/projects/fboffo/blackbxx-hauntedhttp://www.kickstarter.com/projects/fboffo/blackbxx-hauntedhttp://www.kickstarter.com/projects/fboffo/blackbxx-haunted


32/33

shoes.6 The dialogue #ust spilled out, and the" were alive and three)dimensional.

The characters are still alive, and the" have so much to sa", and it was #o"!ul

writing it, and then sending this to another person who got immense pleasure !rom

it. And Im going, =disbelieving pause> 49hat the !uc- '-a". It didnt ma-e sense

to spend +.H million an episode. So lets do a graphic novel. 8ets tell the stor"


33/33

until that moment, the idea that we could destro" ourselves was absurd. ow we

ta-e it !or granted. 9e start to loo- at it, 49ell shit, we got the holes in the o?one

la"er.6 9e become aware that were capable o! e$istential destruction, and I thin-

thats part o! growing up as a species.

I mean, homo sapiens roc-. 9hen "ou see a bunch o! people tr"ing to push a whale

o!! a beach, I go, 4'-a", what other !uc-ing species does that6 That #ust ma-es me

!eel li-e we are di!!erent. 9e arent a part o! the animal -ingdom. 9eve got

something going on. 5eah, were capable o! horrible things. 9ere capable o!

holocausts. 3ut were also capable o! such ama?ing things. To me, the e$ploding o!

the nuclear bombs was in a wa" a declaration o! independence !rom nature. In a

wa", to almost celebrate it. 3ut its a cautious celebration. It would be nice to have

gotten that idea all the wa" out there. It didnt ma-e it.

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Creador de Carnivale. Entrevista