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álvaro joaquim melo siza vieira

ARHITEKTI NE IZMIŠLJAJU, SAMO TRANSFORMIRAJU STVARNOST

ARCHITECTS DO NOT INVENT, THEY JUST TRANSFORM REALITY

oris

Počnimo od zgrade u kojoj se nalazimo, u kojoj se nalazi vaš ured i uredi Souto De Moure i Fernanda Tàvore. Zgradu vidimo kao simbol vrlo lijepog i jedins tvenog odnosa između arhitekata tri različite genera cije. Fernando Tàvora, koji je nedavno preminuo, bio je vaš profesor i s njim ste surađivali. Bio je i profesor Soutu de Mouri koji je kao mladi arhitekt radio s vama. Bili ste, dakle, i učitelj, i suradnik i prijatelj. Svi ste bili jedna velika obitelj. Možete li reći nešto o važnosti Fernanda Tàvore za portugalsku arhitekturu i vas osobno?

oris

Let us start with the building we are in – where is your office and the offices of Souto De Moura and Fernan-do Tàvora. We see this building as a symbol of a very beautiful and unique relationship between architects of three different generations. Fernando Tàvora, who died recently, was your professor, you worked with him and he was also the professor of Souto de Moura who worked with you as a young architect. So you were teachers and collaborators as well as friends. You were all together like a large family. Could you say some

Već više desetljeća Alvaro Siza zauzima izuzetno mjesto u arhitekturi. Prije svega zbog opsežnog opusa koji od najranijih radova do najrecentnijih pokazuje da ga svjetski trendovi nikada nisu zanimali. Njegova je arhitektura odraz svijeta u kojem živi, Porta i Portugala, a s druge strane i njegova potpunog uranjanja u vlastitu subjektivnost: “Kad mislim na Arhitekturu, uvijek kao uzore uzimam pisce, pogotovo Pjesnike, najvještije izumitelje raspona i zvuka, stanovnike samoće.”Kada govori o značaju istinitosti, očito je da je za njega njegov unutarnji svijet barem toliko istinit koliko i vanjska realnost. Zato su njegove građevine istovremeno tako poetične i iznenađujuće prvobitne, u prostoru same po sebi razumljive, a da pritom nisu neupadljive; oblikovno suzdržane i skromne, a ujedno bezvremenske u bogatstvu ponuđenih doživljaja. Njegovo je djelo dokaz da arhitektura i u vremenu visoke tehnologije i globalizacije ostaje umjetnost, vezana uz prostor, kulturu, a time i tradiciju, pa i da je zadaća arhitekata prije svega stvaranje atmosfere, koja je, kako kaže Fernando Pessoa, “duša stvari”.Alvaro Siza has held an extraordinary place in architecture for several decades. He earned it primarily with his prolific opus, where all the works, from the earliest to the most recent, show that he was never interested in global trends. His architecture is a reflection of the world where he lives, of Porto and Portugal, but also of his complete immersion in his own subjectivity: “When I think about Architecture, I always take my example from writers, and particular from the Poets, the most skilled inventors of register and sound, the inhabitants of solitude.”When he talks about the significance of truthfulness, it is obvious that he finds his internal world at least as truthful as the external reality. This is why his buildings are so poetic and surprisingly primeval at the same time, self-explanatory in space, but never inconspicuous; restrained and modest in their forms, but also timeless in the richness of offered experiences. His work proves that even in the age of high technology and globalization architecture can remain an art that it is related to space, culture and tradition, and that the task of architects is first and foremost to create an atmosphere, which is, in the words of Fernando Pessoa, “the soul of things”.

fotografija / photo by Luis Ferreira Alves

razgovarali u portu, 08.07.2006.interviewed in porto, july 8th 2006 by TADEJ GLAŽAR, VERA GRIMMER, ANDRIJA RUSAN, ALEŠ VODOPIVEC

fotografije portreta Alvara Size photos of portraits of Alvaro Siza LUIS FERREIRA ALVES

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siza

Fernando Tàvora je bio bitan za portugalsku arhitekturu, u to nema sumnje. Kao prvo, bio je profesor generacijama arhitekata u Arhitektonskoj školi u Portu. Također je bio i organizator Fakulteta arhitek-ture kad je ovaj postao dijelom sveučilišta. Prije smo imali Beaux Arts sustav u kojem su slikari, kipari i arhitekti bili sku-pa, što je bilo sjajno. No onda nam se otvorila mogućnost ulaska na sveučilište, što je donijelo neka jamstva i prednos-ti. On je bio glavni utemeljitelj Fakulteta. Bio je vrlo mlad kad je počeo predavati. Kao član CIAM-a poznavao je mnoge strane arhitekte. Poznavao je generaciju koja je uključivala njegovog dobrog prijatelja Alda van Eycka, Giancarla De Carla i mnoge druge. Tàvora je bio u grupi unutar CIAM-a koja je imala kritički stav i postavljala nove ambicije za arhitekturu te naglašavala važnost povijesti i konteksta. O svim tim kontak-tima je govorio u školi. Škola je bila vrlo mala, pa smo doista bili kao obitelj. To ima veze s kon-tekstom arhitekture i arhitekata u Portugalu. U Portugalu je bilo vrlo malo arhitekata. Moć u građevinarstvu pripadala je inženjerima; oni su mogli činiti što su htjeli. U to doba arhitekti nisu bili toliko bitni, nisu bili prestižni čak ni kaad bi bili iz-vrsni. Sve se uglavnom promije-nilo nakon revolucije Karanfila 1974. godine, kada je nastao pokret prema decentralizaciji zemlje. Gradovi u unutrašnjosti željeli su i trebali arhitekte. Za vrijeme studiranja Tàvora me pozvao da radim u njegovom uredu. Ubrzo smo se sprijateljili. Napravili smo neke stvari skupa, kao npr. u Macau. Često sam putovao s njim, njegovom su-prugom i prijateljima – u Egipat, Grčku, Južnu Ameriku, Brazil…

words about the importance of Fernando Tàvora for Portu-guese architecture and for you personally?

siza

Fernando Tàvora was important for Portuguese architecture, no doubt about that. Firstly, he was the professor for generations of architects in the school of archi-tecture in Porto. He was also the organizer of the faculty of archi-tecture when it became part of the university. We previously had the Beaux Arts system, where painters, sculptors and architects were together, which was great. But then we had the chance to enter the university, which brought some guarantees and advantages, of course. He was the main organizer of the faculty. Also, he was very young when he began teaching. He knew many international architects, since he was a member of CIAM. He knew that generation that included his good friend Aldo van Eyck, Giancarlo De Carlo, and many others. Tàvora was in the group inside CIAM that went on with criticism of and new ambitions for architecture, and, of course, laid stress on the importance of histo-ry and context. He talked about all those contacts at the school. The school was very small, so it was really like a family. That has to do with the context of architecture and architects in Portugal. There were few architects in Portugal. The power in civil engineering belonged to engineers, they could do anything. At that time, architects were not so important; they had less prestige, even if they were great architects. Then everything changed, mainly after the “Carnation” revolution of 1974, when there was a move-ment towards decentralization in the country. The towns in the interior needed and wanted archi-tects. While I was still a student,

Odnos između učitelja i studenata bio je vrlo izravan, vladala je ta obiteljska atmosfera. Njegov utjecaj bio je iznimno važan za mene jer sam preko njega, zbog našeg izravnog kontakta i prijateljstva, dobio svoj prvi projekt. U to vrijeme je radio na bazenu u Mato-sinhosu, ne onome kraj mora, nego onom drugom. Toliko sam bio zaokupljen radom u njegovom uredu da mi je rekao da bi bilo bolje da to napravim sam. Iznenadio sam se, no postupio sam tako. Što se restorana Boa Nova tiče, činjenica je da se Tàvorina tvrtka prijavila na natječaj. On je morao ići na veliko putovanje, posjetiti škole arhitekture u SAD-u, Aziji, Japanu, tako da nije mogao izaći na natječaj, no meni i četvorici suradnika je rekao da to napravimo. Vratio se nakon godinu dana, taman na vrijeme da napiše opis projekta. Bio je to krasan tekst. Smatram da našu pobjedu na natječaju možemo umnogome zahvaliti tom poetskom tekstu o toj lokaciji, vezanoj za pjesnika koji je išao tamo promatrati more.Kad sam se upisao u Školu, Tàvora je zajedno s drugim arhitektima i mnogim studentima istraživao portugalsku pučku arhitekturu. Knjiga izdana na tu temu doživjela je velik uspjeh i postala slavna. Pozivali su se na nju kako bi dokazali vezu između arhitekture i društvenog ozračja a i kako bi dokazali tada vrlo konzervativnoj vladi da je suludo pokušati nametnuti nešto kao nacionalnu arhitekturu. Autori su dokazali da u zemlji postoji mnogo varijacija, s utjecajima Arapa, Normana, Rimljana, Grka. Vlada je podržala njihov rad u nadi da će dobiti nacionalnu arhitektonsku bibliju. Bila je iznenađena kad je dobila nešto sasvim suprotno – bile su tu različite regije, različite kulture koje su sačinjavale cjelinu, no uz mnogo razlika, bez klišeiziranja. To je bila jedna od utjecajnih stvari koje je učinio.

oris

Tàvora je uspio integrirati moderne zamisli i u tradi-cionalnu arhitekturu. Vrlo vas je lijepo opisao, kazao je da ste graditelj gravitacije. Koliko mi shvaćamo, to ima dvojako značenje: jedno se tiče vaše ozbiljne predanosti svom zanimanju, a drugo je fizička težina ar-hitekture. Gledajući izdaleka, vidimo da su ove osobine vašeg i njegovog rada karakteristične i za suvremenu portugalsku arhitekturu. No, s druge strane, poričete postojanje škole Oporta. Možete li to objasniti?

siza

Mogu. Svojedobno je portugalska arhitektura bila nepoznata jer je tadašnja vlada odbijala kulturnu razmjenu. Portugal je bio gotovo iščeznuo s kulturnog zemljovida, a radilo se o zemlji s tako bogatom i ot-vorenom poviješću – bila je to prva europska zemlja koja je krenula prema Indiji, Japanu, Brazilu, sasvim suprotno od zatvorenosti. To razdoblje koje je gotovo

being taught by Tàvora, I worked in his practice, where he had invited me. We quickly became friends. We did some work together, like, for example, in Macao. I went on many trips with him, his wife and friends – to Egypt, Greece, South America, Brazil…The relation between teachers and students was very direct, there was this familiar atmosphere. His influence was particularly important to me because from our direct contact and friendship I obtained my first project through him. At the time he was working on the swimming pool in Matosinhos, not the one by the sea but the other one. I was so engaged in the work of his practice that he told me “it’s better that you do it yourself”. I was surprised, but I did it. And concerning the restaurant of Boa Nova, in fact, Tàvora’s firm was competing. He had to make a big trip, visiting schools of architecture in United States, Asia, Japan, so he could not do the competition, but he told me and the other four collaborators: “you do it”. He came back after a year, in time to write the description. It was a very beautiful text and I think our winning the competition owes much to that text, a poetic text about that site, which was related to a poet who used to go there to look at the sea. When I entered the school, Tàvora together with other architects and many students, did research into ver-nacular architecture in Portugal. It was published as a very famous book. They used it to show the connection between architecture and social atmosphere. Also, to prove to the government, which was then very conserv-ative, that it was a crazy idea to try to impose a national architecture. They proved that there were so many variations in a country that had had influences from the Arabs, Normans, Romans, Greeks. So, the government had supported that work, thinking probably they would get a national Bible of architecture. They were surprised when it was completely different – there were different regions, different cultures, making a whole, really, but including so many differences, not being a cliché. This was one of the influential things he did.

oris

Tàvora was the one who succeeded in integrating traditional architecture with modern schemes. He gave a very nice description of you, saying that you are a builder of gravity. It had a double meaning, as we understood it: one is the serious commitment to our profession and the other is the physical weight of architecture. Looking from distance, we see these characteristics of his and your work as those that char-acterise contemporary Portuguese architecture. But, on the other hand, you deny the existence of a school of Oporto. Can you explain that?

siza

Yes, I can. At the time Portuguese architecture was not known at all. The reason was that the government was

Alvaro Siza, Rogerio Cavaca, Cecilia Cavaca, Eduardo Souto de Moura, Fernardo Tàvora, Luiza Tàvora, Predsjednički apartman/president apartment (Jože Plečnik, Hradčani, Prag/Prague, 1923.-1924.)

Siza-Tàvora-de Moura biroi/offices, Porto, Portugal, 1993.-1997. fotografija/photo by Christian Richters

Arhitektonski fakultet/Architectural Faculty, Porto, Portugal, 1986.-1999. fotografija/photo by Hisao Suzuki

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izbrisalo opće znanje povijesti potrajalo je pedeset godina. Čak me i danas neke stvari iznenade. Prim-jerice, postoji izložba brazilskog baroka koja se ne povezuje s portugalskim barokom. Ne samo da su Portugalci putovali po svijetu već su ovamo dolazili raditi talijanski arhitekti, kao i mnogi arhitekti iz srednje Europe. Nakon revolucije, nakon što su se ljudi počeli zanimati što se to ovdje zbiva, u jednom vrlo posebnom europskom kontekstu, u vrijeme borbi u Italiji, La lotta continua i sličnih, te velikih pokreta u Francuskoj, postalo je važno biti viđen. Ljudi su na neki način otkrili da ovdje ima i arhitekture i arhitekata. Uslijedile su mnoge publikacije i mitske ideje, posebice o školi “Oporta”, zbog mnogih radova ljudi koji su potekli iz te škole. To je postalo malo mi-tologički, ne baš posve točno, pa smo stoga odlučili ne prihvatiti tu mitsku ideju. Što je škola “Oporta”? To je škola s profesorima i studentima, s različitim pristupima arhitekturi, različitim stremljenjima. To je sredina za proučavanje arhitekture i raspravu o njoj. Suprotna je ideji monolitske škole jedinstvenog stila.

oris

Rado bismo rekli nešto o našim dojmovima i osjećajima nakon posjeta čajani “Boa Nova”. Neki dan smo ondje proveli večer, što je za nas bilo sjajno iskustvo. Krenuli smo pješke od bazena Leça da Palmeira u zalazak sunca, preko vjetrovite promenade. Jak vjetar dolazio

refusing cultural exchange. Portugal had almost disappeared from the cultural map - a country that has such rich and open history, the first in Europe to go to India, Japan, Brazil, which is the opposite of closedness. This period of fifty years almost erased the general knowledge of this history. Even today, I am surprised by certain things. For instance, there is the exhibition of Brazilian Baroque that does not relate to Portuguese Baroque. Not only were the Portuguese going abroad, but there were also Italian architects working here, as well as many Central European architects. After the revolution, after everybody’s curiosity about what was going on here, in a very special European context, the time of the fighting in Italy, La lotta continua and so on, and big movements in France, it became important to be seen. People discovered, in a way, that there were architects and architecture here. What followed then was a lot of publications, and mythical ideas, especially about the school of Oporto, because of the many works of people who had studied in this school. It became a bit mythical, not really true, so we decided not to accept that mythical idea. What is the school of Oporto? It is a school with professors and students, with different approaches to architecture, different tendencies; it is a milieu for studying and debating architecture. It is the opposite of the idea of a monolithic school with a single style.

je s oceana. Večerali smo zatim u čajani, a tih nekoliko sati boravka tamo za nas je bio zaista užitak. Nakon toga se može racionalno razmišljati o mnogim stvarima koje tamo vidite – o odnosu između izgrađenog i prirodnog, o odnosu vas i Wrightove arhitek-ture dok ste bili mlad arhitekt, o dinamici tamošnjih prostora, o otvorima koji su poput okvira za golemi oceanski krajolik... Sva su nam osjetila bila pod utjeca-jem tih prostora, duboko su nas dirnuli. Vaša je namjera sigurno bila stvoriti arhitekturu koja će ići preko racionalnog, koja će izraziti vaš tadašnji susret sa svi-jetom, vas kao mladog čovjeka. Ipak, iznenadilo nas je koliko je ta građevina zrela, posebice za mladića od 25 godina.

siza

Nepunih 25. Vraća mi to sje-ćanje i pomalo budi nostalgiju. Već sam prije rekao da nas je Tàvora uvjerio da to sami na-pravimo, iako smo mi bili samo suradnici. On je otišao u svijet, a nama je rekao da to učinimo. Prije odlaska na put s nama je obišao lokaciju. Nas su bila čet-vorica mladih suradnika. Popeo se na malu uzvisinu i rekao:

oris

Now we would like to talk about our impressions and feelings after visiting the Boa Nova Teahouse. The other day, we spent an evening there, which was a terrific experience for all of us. We walked from the Leça da Palmeira pools in the sunset, on the promenade, and it was very windy, the wind was coming in from the ocean. Then we had dinner and enjoyed it very much. Afterwards, you can rationally think of many things there, of the relation between the built and the natural, or about the relation between you and the architecture of Wright, you being a young man then, or about the dynamic of the spaces there, of openings as frames for this tremendous ocean landscape. All our senses were influenced by these spac-es; we were deeply touched by it. Your intention was surely to make architecture which goes far beyond the rational, expressing your encounter with the world at that time, as a young man. Still, it was very surprising for us how mature this building is, especially for a young man of 25.

akvarel / watercolour, Alvaro Siza

Čajana i restoran Boa Nova/Boa Nova Tea House and Restaurant, Leça da Palmeira, Portugal, 1958.-1963. presjek / section ulazni nivo / entrance level nivo restorana / restaurant level

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“To mora biti ovdje”. Uplašili smo se jer se radilo o brdu kamenja s vrlo teškim pristupom. Počeli smo raditi, obilazili smo lokaciju i izradili projekt. On je došao na kraju, napisao tekst i mi smo pobijedili na natječaju. Radilo se o općinskom natječaju. Odmah su se pojavili i kritičari jer je projekt značio povratak korijenima. Ljudi su govorili kako se radi o glupoj zgradi kojoj je fasada na stražnjoj strani. No mi smo imali potporu općine, dovršili smo projekt za godinu dana i izgradnja je mogla započeti, no ja osobno nisam bio zadovoljan rezultatom. Možda mi je Wright već onda bio na pameti … Jednoga dana sam zaključio da problem leži u samom konceptu; mor-ali smo ga promijeniti. Otišao sam kući i razmislio.

siza

Of already 25. Well, it brings memories, perhaps nos-talgia. I already said that Tàvora convinced us to go on and do it, even though we were only collaborators. He went out into the world and said: “OK, you do it.” Before going on his trip, he went with us to the site. There were four of us collaborators, all young. He went up that small hill and said: “it must be here”. We panicked, because it was a mountain of rocks with a difficult access. So we began to work, visit the site, put up a project. He came for the finish, wrote the text, and we won the competition. It was a municipal competition. Some criticisms came immediately, because the pro-ject meant going back to the roots. People said it was

Potom sam načinio nekoliko crteža – ne odmah, nego korak po korak. Postojala je ideja da se uđe u središnji dio koji gleda prema moru i povežu restoran i čajana na stražnjoj strani, kroz kuhinju, koja bi služila i restoranu i čajani. Moje kolege nisu bili sretni jer su više od godinu dana radili na tom pro-jektu i nisu htjeli izgubiti svo to vrijeme. Otišli smo na razgovor s Tàvorom. Netko je rekao da bismo morali ponovo raditi sve nacrte, no on nas je pogledao i rekao: “Ne, ovako bi bilo mnogo bolje”. Uvjerio je i druge, pa smo započeli s radom na novom projektu. Tijekom izrade ostao sam s jednim od njih – ostali su morali raditi druge stvari – i razvili smo projekt. To je čitava priča. Sjećam se izrade nacrta primjenjenih gradilištu, svakog koraka, svakog kamena. Iz-rađivali smo plan i postavljali oznake na tlu. Rekao bih: “Ne, ovaj kamen će biti glavni, ovaj manji će ići ovamo”, kao da ste kod krojača na probi. U to vrijeme, nije postojala želja da se sve brzo završi; bilo je dovol-jno vremena da se sve prouči i potom izvrši. Govorim o 1957. godini, zgrada je izgrađena 1958. godine. Radnici su tada bili vrlo dobri. I drvo je također bilo iznimno dobro, afričko drvo. Sjajno su ga obrađivali. U gotovo isto vrijeme odvijalo se istraživanje pučke arhitekture. U njemu nisam sudjelovao, ali sam ga pratio. Počeo sam pratiti i druge stvari, ne samo pučku arhitekturu. U 50-ima su u Portugal počele pristizati in-formacije. U 30-ima nismo imali puno kontakata s Europom, a sada smo opet počeli primati više časopisa: Architecture d’aujourd’hui, jedini koji smo čitavo vrijeme dobivali; časop-ise iz Italije i Engleske; infor-macije o velikim raspravama i praksi u Italiji, o neorealizmu.

a stupid building which had the façade at the back. But we had the support of the municipality, we worked for one year, did the project, and the construction was scheduled to begin. Still, I was not personally happy with the result. Maybe Wright was already on my mind… One day, I con-cluded that the problem was the concept itself. We had to change it. I went home and considered the thing. Then I made some dra wings – not immediately, but step by step. There was the idea of entering into the middle part, looking to the sea, and connect-ing the restaurant and tea house at the back through the kitchen, serving both. My colleagues were not happy with it because they had been working for more than a year and did not want to waste all that time. So we went to speak with Tàvora. Some said that we would have to do all the drawings again, and he looked and said “no, this is much bet-ter”. He convinced the others and we began the new project. During the execution, I stayed with one of them – the others had other work to do – and we developed this. This is the story. I remember making the site designs, step by step, all the rocks, and we made plans, and then we put marks in the ground here, I said “no, this rock will be major, and less here”, it is like going to a tailor for a fitting. At that time, there was no wish to do everything quickly, there was much time to study and then to execute. I am speaking of 1957, it was finished in 1958, I think. The workers were very good at that time. The wood was also very good, African wood. They worked it fantastically. Almost at the same time, there was the investigation into ver-nacular architecture, which I did not participate in, but I followed it. I began to turn to other things, not exclusively the vernacular. It

Čajana i restoran Boa Nova/Boa Nova Tea House and Restaurant, Leça da Palmeira, Portugal, 1958.-1963. fotografija/photo by Hisao Suzuki

Čajana i restoran Boa Nova/Boa Nova Tea House and Restaurant, Leça da Palmeira, Portugal, 1958.-1963. foto-grafija/photo by Oris

Frank Loyd Wright, Taliesin West, Arizona, 1937.-1959.

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Isto tako i o Franku Lloydu Wrightu, budući da je Bruno Zevi opet objavio Wrighta u svom časopisu. Sjećam se koliko sam se divio knjizi Henryja-Russella Hitchcocka. Doznao sam i za Alvara Aalta, uglavnom preko Italije. Otvorili su nam se novi načini razmišl-janja i ja sam ih slijedio, istraživao ih. Smatram da projekt “Boa Nova” nije znak zrelosti, nego znak velike koncentracije na rad, gotovo jedini rad u razdoblju tako bogatom ambicijama i susretima.

oris

U ovom projektu i u projektu “Ocean Swimming Pool” može se iščitati strast prema mjestu. Vaši kasniji projekti također imaju jedinstvenu senzibilnost prema mjestu. Što je bitno kod mjesta vaših projekata? Pita-mo vas to jer trendovi u suvremenoj arhitekturi idu u suprotnom pravcu: zgrade pokazuju sve manje i manje poštovanja prema svom prostornom kontekstu. Negdje ste bili rekli da je opsesija da se bude originalan u dizajnu nekulturna ili plitka. Rekli ste to u Immaginario d’evidenza. Bojim se da je većina današnje trendovske arhitekture upravo takva – ignorira lokaciju. Kako biste to komentirali?

siza

Stvari se odvijaju onako kako ste ih opisali. Lokacije su, primjerice, nekoć bile vrlo mirna stvar. No sada se preobrazbe događaju vrlo brzo: eksplozija gradova, užurbanost, ritam tehnoloških promjena te želja za različitošću koja dolazi zajedno s prirodnom jedno-ličnošću, zbog tehnologije razmjene i globalizacije. To je postalo gotovo prirodno, no smatram da će se to promijeniti. U ovom trenutku ako ne pazite na kontekst, izgubit ćete pejzaž i njegovu snagu. Postoji i razmišljanje koje kaže: Ovo je suvremena situacija; ako je poričete ili se borite protiv nje, nalik ste Don Kihotu; ovo je sada naš svijet, a drugačije razmišl-janje čista je nostalgija. Ja uopće tako ne mislim jer smatram da postoji snažna zaštita protiv spekulacije i destrukcije, zagađenje atmosfere, itd. Tu su i drugi protagonisti drugačijeg načina djelovanja; mnoge se stvari događaju, ne smatram da idemo u samo jednom pravcu.

was a time when much information began arriving in Portugal, starting in the fifties. In the thirties, there had been much contact with Europe, and now we were again receiving more magazines: Architecture d’au-jourd’hui, the only one that we received all the time; magazines from Italy and England; information about the big debate and practice in Italy, neo-realism; also, Frank Lloyd Wright, because Bruno Zevi republished again Wright in his magazine. I remember I bought the book of Henry-Russell Hitchcock, and I marveled at it. I also learned about Alvar Aalto, mainly through Italy. Then new ways were opened to our minds and I followed them, explored them. I think the Boa Nova Project is not a sign of maturity, but of big concentra-tion on work, almost one work, in this period so rich in ambitions and meetings.

oris

In this project, and in the Ocean Swimming Pool, one can see a kind of a passion for place. Your later projects also have a unique sensitivity for place. What is important about the place of your projects? We are asking this because the contemporary trends in architecture go into the opposite direction: the build-ings show less and less respect for their spatial con-text. Somewhere you said that to begin a design and be obsessed with being original is to be uncultured or shallow. You said it in Immaginario d’evidenza. We are afraid that most of the trendy architecture today is just like that – ignoring the site. How would you comment on this?

siza

Things are going down, as you described it – place, for instance, used to be a very quiet thing. But now trans-formations are very quick: the explosion of the towns, the quickness of everything, the rhythm of technological changes, and the ambitions and the wish for difference that comes together with a natural uniformity, because of technology, exchanges and globalization. It is almost natural and I think it will change. At the moment, not looking so much at the context you lose the landscape, its power. Also, there is a line of thinking that says: this is the contemporary situation; to deny or fight it

oris

Smatrate li da bismo trebali ići za arhitekturom identiteta? Postoji snažno izraženo mišljenje koje se protivi arhitekturi identiteta.

siza

Da, postoji. Ljudi to smatraju nostalgičnim sta-vom. Mnogo sam to puta čuo od kritičara. Morao bih razmisliti o tome, no nisam uvjeren jer čak i kada imamo daleko intenzivnije aktivnosti i odnose, to je vrlo dobro. Tako je uvijek bilo i kroz povijest. Svaka civilizacija dobiva svojim kon-taktima. Zamislite kakav je utjecaj na Portugal imao susret s indijskom kulturom i arhitekturom – nastala je potpuna promjena i svojevrstan ushit. Ili pogledajte Japan! Što je japanska arhitektura značila za Franka Lloyda Wrighta, nizozemske arhitekte ili što je afrička umjetnost značila za Picassa, japanski bakrorezi za Van Gogha, itd. Kul-tura može živjeti svugdje gdje ima takvih utjecaja, kontakata. Ako ih nema, mrtva je. No to ne znači da će sve postati isto i da povijesni dokumenti nisu važni. Povijest arhitekture je više povijest konti-nuiteta nego prekida. Epizodno gledano, prekida je bilo, s dobrim razlogom. No ako krenemo malo dalje, vidjet ćemo kontinuitet. Ponekad čak ide i unatrag, što mi se ne sviđa, no u biti postoji kon-tinuitet i to je još uvijek bitno. Danas postoji vrlo snažna tendencija stvaranje tabulae rase. Radi se o iskustvu koje je već doživljeno i proklamirano 30-ih godina.. U isto vrijeme činjenica je da se odjednom iz ekonomskih ili političkih razloga pojavljuju ogromni gradovi: Šangaj je doživio potpuni preobražaj, mnogo je stvari uništeno. Taj je pokret toliko jak da uništava sve – poput erupcije ili katastrofe. No na koncu se ne radi o katastrofi, jer se radi o usponu jedne civilizacije koja se naizgled zaustavila. Ne smatram da stvari danas mogu proći tiho i da ćemo odmah dobiti mir koji ste opisali – promatrati more. Svijet prolazi kroz velike trzavice. No odbijam zbog toga biti pesimističan.

is like being Don Quixote; this is our world now; thinking differently is pure nostalgia. I do not think so at all, I think there is also strong protection for speculation and for destruction, pollution of the atmosphere etc. Then there are other protagonists of a different way, many things are happening, I do not think we are going in a single way.

oris

Would you say that we should go for architecture of identity? There is also a strong thinking against the architecture of identity.

siza

Yes, there is, people consider it a kind of a nostalgic position. I have heard that many times, from critics. Yes, I have to think about that, but it does not convince me, because even when we have much more intense action and relations, that is very good. In history, it always happened. Every civilization wins by having contacts. Imagine the impact in Portugal when it met Indian culture and architecture – a complete change and a kind of en-thusiasm. Or look at Japan, what Japanese architecture meant to Frank Lloyd Wright, to the Dutch architects, or what African art meant to Picasso or Japanese etchings for Van Gogh, and so on. The culture in each place can live if there are these inputs, these contacts. If not, it is dead. But it does not mean that everything becomes the same and that historical documents are not impor-tant. The history of architecture is much more a history of continuity than of rupture. Episodically, there were ruptures, with good reasons. But if we go a little further, we see continuity. It sometimes even goes backward, which I do not like. But basically, there is continuity, and that is still important. Today there is a very strong tendency to try to create a tabula rasa, which was an experience that was already done and proclaimed in the thirties. At the same time, it is a reality that suddenly, for economic or political reasons, enormous towns are appearing: Shanghai has completely transformed and so many things have been destroyed. This movement is so strong that it brings everything down – like an eruption, a disaster. But in the end it is not a disaster, because it is the ascent of a civilization that appeared to have stopped I do not think that today things can go on quietly and that fotografija / photo

by Luis Ferreira Alves

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oris

Kako biste reagirali da dobijete narudžbu iz Šangaja? Recimo, narudžbu za veliki korporaci-jski neboder, jednu generičku zgradu?

siza

Prvo bih pažljivo razmislio o tome. U većini slučajeva narudž-bu vjerojatno ne bih prihvatio iz zdravstvenih razloga i poman-jkanja energije (73 su mi godine). No ako bi me nešto zaintrigiralo, prihvatio bih. Radio sam projekt u Južnoj Koreji, što mi je bilo fan-tastično iskustvo iz više razloga. Kao prvo, rekao sam da neću ići tamo. Zamolio sam klijenta da mi pošalje mnogo video snima-ka i podataka kako bih osjetio ozračje, ne samo građevina nego i ljudi, pa i saznao što se tamo zbiva. Izradio sam projekt i inves-titor je došao ovamo. Razgovarali smo o idejama i shvatio sam da su naručitelji vrlo kompetentni. Zgradu su izgradili vrlo brzo i vrlo kvalitetno. Lokacija je prekrasna – radi se o dvorani za izvođenje glazbe u parku – za odmor. Tre-nutno radim zgradu za Seulsko sveučilište. Isto su tako profesori došli ovamo, atmosfera i kontakti bili su vrlo dobri. Koliko znam, a poznajem dosta arhitekata koji rade u Kini, u Šangaju je mnogo teže, nije toliko privlačno. Njih za-nima imidž, što se može vidjeti u natječajima, pa čak i arhitekton-skim časopisima. Na natječajima imidž obično pobjeđuje. Oni koji odbiju prezentirati zapanjujući imidž s fantastičnim virtualnim efektima za njih nisu bitni; takvi nemaju šanse za uspjeh. Natječa-ji traju vrlo kratko, onoliko koliko je potrebno za izradu imidža, a ne građevine. U Šangaju bi bilo teško.

oris

Jednom ste bili rekli da arhitekti samo transformiraju stvari. Input različitih arhitekata i arhitekture

we can immediately have that peace you described – looking at the sea. This world is in big convulsions. But I refuse to be pessimistic about it.

oris

If you got a commission in Shanghai, how would you re-act? Let us say, a request for a corporate tower, a generic building?

siza

Firstly, I would think carefully about it. In many cases, for reasons of health, energy (I am 73), I would probably not accept. But if something were intriguing, I would accept. I did a project in South Korea, it was a fantastic experience for various reasons. Firstly, I said I would not go there. I told the client to send me a lot of videos, as well as all information, to make me feel the atmosphere, not only of the buildings, but also of the people, what was going on there. I creat-ed the project, the investor came here. We talked about ideas, I saw they were very competent, they did the building very quickly, very well. It is a beautiful site, a hall for the performance of music in a park, for leisure. I am now doing a building for Seoul University. Again, the professors came here, the atmosphere and contacts were very good. In Shanghai, as far as I know, and I know a lot of architects working in China, it is more difficult, not so inviting. They are interested in the image, which can be seen in competitions and even in architectural magazines. In competitions, what usually wins is the image. Those who refuse to present an astonishing image with fantastic virtual effects have no importance for them, no possibility of success. The time for the competition is very short, because it is the time to create

mora biti važan. Ako se vratimo bazenu kraj oceana u Leça da Palmeira, što je tamo bio input? Radi se o vrlo specifičnom djelu.

siza

Da, drugačije je, manje ovisi o brizi za detalje i izradu, na neki način je šire. Kad sam radio bazen, tamo je bilo sti-jenje, a ideja o izradi bazena je već bila u tijeku. Zamoljen sam da napravim instalaciju. Moja je namjera bila ne izraditi geometrijski pravilan bazen, nego iskoristiti stijene, a onda jednostavno postavljati zid ovdje ili ondje. Granica bazena bit će stijenje koje će se refl-ektirati. Zatim sam izgradio vrlo nisku kuću za garderobe kako bi prolaznici mogli uvijek vidjeti more i plažu. Napravio sam je tamnom kako bi se ku-pači mogli spustiti rampom iz prostora u kojem nema mnogo svjetla, a kad bi izašli, došli bi pred zid, okrenuli se i – hop! – bili bi na otvorenom. Takva je bila ideja. Razvoj te ideje bio je postupan. Sjećam se da je ovdje bilo stijenja, a ja sam napravio zid kako bih omogućio zaštitu prema sjeveru. Vrlo dobro se sjećam da mi je, kad sam to napravio, palo na pamet ono što sam vidio u knjizi Henry-Russell Hitchcocka, mislim da je to bio projekt “Taliesin”. Razvoj detal-ja ovdje: radi se samo o betonu i drvu zato što je lokacija vrlo

an image, not to make a building. It would be difficult in Shanghai.

oris

Once you said that architects just transform things. The input of different architects and ar-chitecture must be important. If we go back to the swimming pool at the ocean in Leça de Palmeira, what was the input that time? It is a very specific work.

siza

Yes, it is very different, less dependent on care for details and workmanship, wider in a way. When I made the swimming pool, there were rocks, and the idea of making a swimming pool was already underway. I was asked to do the installations. My intention was to say: do not do a geometric swimming pool, but use the rocks, then we only

Anyang, South Korea, 2006. fotografija / photo by Fernardo Guerra, Sergio Guerra

Bazen pokraj oceana / Ocean Swiming Pool, Leça da Palmeira, Portugal, 1961.-1966.

fotografija / photo by Hisao Suzuki

fotografija / photo by Oris

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zahtjevna u smislu materijala, vrlo teška. S jedne je strane zaštićena stijenama, no s druge je otvorena. Korak po korak, razvio sam te prostorije definirane prirodom. Ako postavim nešto ovamo, to mora biti potpuno autonomno i strogo geometrično. No morao sam paziti gdje ću dodirnuti prirodu, gdje ću dodir-nuti kamen. Put koji je vodio do bazena je samo na nekim mjestima potpomognut s dvije ili tri stepenice kako bi bio ugodniji, no veći dio puta sastojao se od prirodnog kamenja. Na neki način, zajedništvo s krajolikom postoji, no radi se o cjelini u potpunosti kontinuiranoj i autonomnoj.

oris

Govorite o ranom projektu, no u jednom od svojih in-tervjua rekli ste “Svi moji radovi uvijek su sa mnom”. Je li moguće usporediti vaš posljednji rad, “Iberê Ca-margo Foundation” u Porto Alegreu sa kućom Beires u Póvoa de Varzim iz 1976. godine? Obje imaju određenu dvojakost: jedna strana je glatka, druga je naborana, gruba. Postoje neke bitne teme koje se uvijek iznova pojavljuju u vašim radovima. Kako biste vi opisali te ključne teme?

siza

Ljudi me ponekad znaju upitati: “Koje vam je djelo najdraže?”. Ja im kažem da ne znam jer sva u mojoj glavi čine jedno djelo; to nije razdvojeno. Razmišljam i učim o arhitekturi, to će trajati dok se jednog dana ne zaustavi. Ako se neke stvari vrate – ideje, detalji ili što već – u nekom kasnije djelu, to je normalno. To je u mojoj glavi i danas i jučer. Koje stvari sma-tram važnijima? Ne ovisi to o mojim željama, nego o

have to put a wall here and another there. The limit of the pool will be the rocks, they will be reflected here. Then I made the building for cloak-rooms, very low, so that the people here could always see the sea, the beach. I made it rather dark so that we could go down in a ramp, and there is not much light, and then we go outside, and there is a wall, and we turn and – pop! – we are in the open. This was the idea. Developing this idea that came step by step, I remembered there were rocks here, and I made the wall here to protect it from the north. I remember very well that when I did this, it came to my mind what I had seen in the Henry-Russell Hitchcock book, maybe it was the Taliesin project. The development of detailing here: this is only cement and wood, also because the site is very exigent in terms of materials, very hard. On the one side it is protected by the rocks, but on the other it is open. Step by step, I developed this, spaces, defined by nature. When I put something here, it had to be completely autonomous, strictly geometric. But I had to take care where to touch nature, where to touch the rock. The way we went to the swimming pool was helped only in some places by two or three steps to make it more convenient, but the whole of the way was found in the natural rocks. In a way, it is together with the landscape, but it is a whole, absolutely continuous and autonomous.

oris

Now you were speaking about an early project. But you said in one of your interviews: “all my works are always with me”. Is it possible to compare your most recent work, the Iberê Camargo Foundation in Porto Alegre, with the Beires house in Povoa de

uvjetima mjesta na kojem radimo. Primjerice, zašto je kuća Beires toliko puna kontrasta? Prvi razlog je vrlo prozaičan. Prije nje izradio sam kuću koja je okruživala drvo u patiu. Gospođa investitorica mi je rekla da i ona želi takvu kuću s patiom. Rekao sam joj da je to nemoguće jer se radi o maloj lokaciji, ne mogu napraviti patio jer za njega nemam mjesta. Ona je insistirala. Morao sam izgraditi pravokutnik, nije bilo druge mogućnosti uz takva ograničenja. Rekao sam si da bih mogao “razbiti” dio oboda kuće i napraviti nešto nalik patiu. Napravio sam kuću vrlo otvorenu prema van, vrlo jednostavnu i geometričnu. Gospođa je bila zadovoljna: “Konačno imam patio”. Postoji još jedan razlog. Prije toga sam blizu izgra-dio još jednu kuću, kao i neke druge u kojima sam mogao napraviti patio. Bile su vrlo otvorene prema eksterijeru, prema patiu i zatvorenije prema ulici. To je uzrokovalo reakcije tipa “slijepa kuća”, “zašto zatvarate kuću prema ulici, asocijalni ste”. Razmislio sam o tome i shvatio da, gradeći na način na koji sam tada gradio, nije bilo nikakvih drugih šansi osim tih rezidencija na periferiji, u urbanim područjima, gdje ste imali puno, uglavnom užasnih, objekata. Postavl-jao sam obranu od te grozne atmosfere i stvarao mali raj unutra, no tada sam pomislio da to nije pametno; živio sam usred tih stvari, nisam to mogao poreći. Ja bih u tom svom raju bio vrlo melankoličan. Kad sam to učinio, odlučio sam u potpunosti otvoriti kuću. To je moj život, možda je grozan, ali ja tu živim, odnosno ta gospođa tu živi. Što se tiče veze između kuće Beires i muzeja u Porto Alegreu… Nikada nisam razmišljao o tome što ste rekli, no doista se u ovom slučaju ne radi o krivulji nego o modulaciji. Zašto? U biti,

Varzim from 1976? Both have a certain ambiguity: one side is smooth; the other is corrugated, rough. There are some important issues which appear in your work again and again. How would you describe these crucial issues?

siza

Sometimes people ask me: which is your favourite work? And I say I do not know, because in my mind it is all one work, it is not divided. I am thinking and learning about architecture, it goes on, and it will stop one day. If some things come back – ideas or details or whatever – in a work made much later, it is normal. Today and yesterday, it is in my mind. Which things do I consider more important? It does not depend on my wish, but on the conditions and where we work. For instance, why is the Beires House so full of contrasts? The first reason is very prosaic. Previously, I had made a house surrounding a tree, a patio. This lady, the client, said to me “I want a house like that one, with the patio”. I said, “It is impossible, because this is a small site, I cannot do a patio because I do not have the space for it”. She insisted. But I had to build a rectangle, there was no other possibility with such constraints. Then I said, “Maybe I can break a part of the house’s perimeter and make a suggestion of a patio”. I made it very open to the exterior, very simple and geometric. The lady was satisfied with that, “I have my patio now”. There is also another reason. Previously, I had made a house very near, and some other houses, where I was really able to do a patio. They were very open to the exterior, to the patio, and much more closed to the street. That caused impressions and reactions:

Kuća Beires / Beires House, Póvoa de Varzim, Portugal, 1973.-1976.

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morao sam izgraditi cjelinu, a imao sam pred sobom rijeku veliku poput mora. Prostor je bio reduciran, s velikim razlikama u razinama. Uokolo je bilo sve puno prekrasnog zelenila. Nisam želio u to dirati jer je nemoguće nanovo napraviti tako prelijepu cjelinu. Problem je bio u tome što sam morao imati pristup izložbenim prostorima uz obronak brda, no nisam mogao napraviti prilaz s ceste, pa sam stoga morao napraviti zakretanje paralelno s pristupom. To se nije moglo izvesti na drugačiji način. Pri projekti-ranju, dok sam zamišljao veliki kamion koji se penje uz tu cestu, zavoj mi se činio vrlo snažnim. Nakon toga su došle rampe. Napravio sam veliki unutarnji prostor. Vjerojatno ćete reći, a i istina je, da je nalik Guggenheimu. No pola rampe je unutra, a pola vani, dok su prostorije pravokutne. U eksterijeru možete vidjeti male prozore. Mali su, no ipak vidite rijeku, a postoji kut iz kojeg se može vidjeti čitav grad. Te “ruke” (rampe) čine vanjsku cjelinu, tako da ste pri dolasku okruženi tim velikim strukturama, a zatim ulazite. To sve nije došlo tako brzo kao što vam ja to govorim. Sjećam se prve svoje ideje: ući na višoj razini i onda napraviti mostić, kao u nekim kućama u Kaliforniji. No nisu mogli kupiti zemljište – bila je to vrlo skupa stambena četvrt. Za tu ideju imao sam na umu prekrasni lift u Baixai u Lisabonu. Mi uvijek povezujemo stvari, ideje dolaze postupno, neke odumru, ali druge dolaze. Treba vremena. Problem

“a blind house”, “Why are you closing the house to the street, you have an antisocial mind”. I had to think about it and realized that, building as I was then, there were no other opportunities except these residences in the periphery, in urban areas, where you had a lot of objects, almost all of them horrible. I was putting up a defence against this terrible atmosphere, creating a small paradise inside, but then I thought it was crazy, I was living in the middle of these things, I could not deny it. I would be very melancholic in my paradise. When I did this, I decided I would open it here completely. This is my life, it may be horrible, but this is where I live, I mean, where the lady lives. So much about the connection between the Beires house and the muse-um in Porto Alegre… I never thought about what you said, but really, in this case there is not a curve, but a modulation. Why? Basically, because I had to build a whole, and I had there a big river, like the sea. The space was reduced, with a big difference in levels. It was wonderfully invaded by the greenery, by plants. I said I did not want to touch that, because it was impos-sible to remake that beautiful whole. The difficulty in this was that I had to have access to the exhibitions on the hillside, but I could not make the access from the road, so I had to do a movement parallel with the acces. I could not do it another way. When I was designing it and thinking of a big motorcar going there, the curve appeared very strong. Afterwards the ramps came. I

današnjih arhitekata je što neki ljudi smatraju da ideje dolaze same od sebe. Ideje prolaze vrlo krivudavim putovima dok ne nađu jasan smjer.

oris

Vratimo se na vašu ideju da arhitekti ništa ne izmišljaju, nego da samo transformiraju stvarnost.

siza

Možda inženjeri mogu izmisliti nešto, arhitekti ne izmišljaju. Oni uvijek slijede ono na čemu se već eksperimentiralo. Mi se bavimo novim stvarima, no nika-da ne napravimo otkriće. Prvi automobili imali su oblik kočije.

oris

Ustvari, sva arhitektura prolazi kroz filtar arhitektove osobnosti. Biste li rekli da je ona portret arhitekta?

made the big interior space. You will say – and it is true – it is like the Guggenheim. But half of the ramp is inside, half is outside, and the rooms are rectangular. In the exterior, you can see the small windows. They are small, but in fact, you see the river and there is an angle where you see the whole town. These arms (ramps) make an exterior whole, so you arrive and you are surrounded by these big structures, then you enter. This did not come as quickly as I am telling you. I remember the first idea I had: to enter by the higher level and then make a small bridge and go back as in some California houses. But they could not buy the ground here; it was a very rich residential area. For this idea, I had in my mind the beautiful lift in Baixa in Lisabon. We always associate things, ideas come step by step; some die and we have other ones. It has to take some time. The problem of architects today is that some people think

Fondacija/Foundation Iberê Camargo, Porto Alegre, Brazil/Brasil, 1998.-2006., fotografi-ja/photo by Leonardo Finotti

Fondacija/Foundation Iberê Camargo, Porto Alegre, Brazil/Brasil, 1998.-2006.

tlocrt 1. nivoa / 1st level plan presjek / section

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siza

To može biti reakcija na portret koji on ima u nekom trenutku. Postoji jaka potreba da snažno osjećamo ići drugim putem. Naše iskustvo je korisno, no to nije put do novog projekta, jer novi projekt uključuje druge ljude, gradilišta, uvjete, ozračje među ljudima. To ima utjecaja na nas. Mi imamo svoj identitet, no u svome radu smo otvoreni za stvari koje dolaze izvana, puno više nego za stvari koje dolaze iznutra. Postoji stabilnost, no postoji i prijemljivost.

oris

Tijekom našeg boravka u Portu posjetili smo “Bouçu”, projekt socijalnog stanovanja koje ste pokrenuli prije više godina. Možemo li sada razgovarati o socijalnoj ulo-zi arhitekture? Moramo reći da nas je i projekt “Évora” zadivio jer je tu jasno da postoji kontinuitet s obzirom na spontanu postojeću arhitekturu, veliko poštovanje prema načinu na koji su ljudi sami gradili. Ono čemu se zaista divimo u vašem projektu je skromnost koja postaje vrlina arhitekture. Kao što ste rekli na primanju nagrade “Pritzker”, vi ste oduvijek bili komunistički arhitekt iz Matosinhosa.

siza

Nisam to rekao.

oris

Pisalo je u jednom časopisu. Niste to rekli? Možda vas je netko drugi opisao takvim.

ideas come just like that. Ideas have very tortuous ways to make a clear road.

oris

Let us go back to your idea that architects do not invent anything, they just transform reality.

siza

Maybe engineers can invent something, but archi-tects do not invent. They always follow what has already been experimented on. We look into new things, but we never make an invention. The first motorcars had the form of the chariot.

oris

In fact, all architecture goes through the filter of the personality of the architect. Would you say it is the portrait of the architect?

siza

It may be a reaction to the portrait he has in each moment. There is the need for us to feel so strongly, to go another way. The experience we have is useful, but it is not the way to a new project, because a new project involves other people, sites, conditions, human atmosphere. It influences us. We have our identity, but we are open in our work to what comes from the outside much more than to what comes from the inside. There is stability, but there is also receptiveness.

oris

Yesterday, during our stay in Porto, we visited Bouça, the social housing project you started years ago. Now we can talk about the social role of architecture. We were very impressed by the Évora project, we must say, because there is this continuity with the spontaneous architecture that was already there, a high respect for the way the people built by themselves. What we really admire in your project is the modesty that becomes a vir-tue of architecture. As you said when you received the Pritzker Prize, you were always a communist architect from Matosinhos.

siza

But I did not say that.

oris

It was written in a magazine. You did not say that? Maybe somebody else described you like that.

siza

Nisam znao da je to napisano. Prije nekog vremena objavljen je intervju s Gregottijem u časopisu Casabella o portu-galskoj arhitekturi. Interv-juirali su i mene o odnosima s talijanskim arhitektima jer smo Gregotti i ja prijatelji dugi niz godina. Prije nego što je tekst objavljen, poslali su mi ga na provjeru. Pročitao sam ga i otkrio rečenicu koju nije izrekao Gregotti, nego sugov-ornik na intervjuu, a koja kaže da nisam ništa drugo nego komunistički arhitekt. Nazvao sam ih i rekao da to nisam baš razumio i da to nikada ne bih izrekao iz više razloga. Prvi je razlog taj što nisam lud. Kako bih mogao otići u SAD i reći da sam komunist? Smjesta bi me odbili, bez nagrade, čak i bez ovjere putovnice. Dakle, nisam to mogao reći. Druga stvar je da se ne želim, ni u kojem slučaju, predstavljati komunističkim borcem jer u stvarnosti nikada nisam imao tajni borbeni život koji su mno-gi imali (moj prijatelj fotograf je, primjerice, bio u zatvoru), pa bi predstavljalo ne samo ogroman manjak poštovanja nego i samopoštovanja kad bih se predstavljao kao komu-nistički borac, bez obzira na moj pristup političkoj sceni. Nikada nisam bio borac, nika-da nisam bio u zatvoru, radio sam na projektima dok su se drugi borili i patili. Rekao sam im da objave intervju, ali bez tog dijela. Potom sam razgovarao i s Gregottijem, pa mi je i on rekao kako ne razumije da bih ja mogao izgovoriti tako nešto.

oris

Projekt “Évora” trajao je dvade-set godina. Je li se tijekom tog vremena puno mijenjao?

siza

I did not know this had been written. Some time ago I read an interview with Gregotti, pub-lished in Casabella, maybe, about Portuguese architecture. They did an interview with me about relations with the Italian architects, because we have been friends for many years. Before the interview was pub-lished, they sent it to me for review. I read it and discovered a phrase, not by Gregotti but by the interviewer, saying that I had said I was nothing but a com-munist architect. I called them and said I did not understand that, I would never say that for different reasons. One reason is that I am not crazy. How could I go to the United States and say that I was a communist? They would immediately turn me out, with no prize, no pass-port authorization. So I could not have said that. The second thing is that I do not want, by any means, to present the image of a communist fighter because in reality I never had the clandes-tine fighting life that many have, for instance, my friend, the pho-tographer here was in prison, so it would be an incredible lack not only of respect but also of self-respect to present myself as a communist fighter, regardless of my approach to the political scene. I never was a fighter, I never was in prison, I was do-ing projects while some others were fighting and suffering. So I said: “Publish the interview, but without that”. Then I went to Gregotti and talked to him, and he said: “I also did not understand how you could say something like that”.

oris

The Évora project took about twenty years to finish. Did it change a lot during that time?

Fundacija Serralves / Serralves Foundation, Porto, Portugal, 1996.-1999. fotografija / photo by Hisao Suzuki

Naselje socijalnih stano-va / Social Housing, Quinta da Malagueira, Évora, Portugal, 1977.-1995. fotografija / photo by Roberto Collovà

situacija / site-plan

22

siza

Sve su zgrade napravljene u prvom koraku. Na nesreću, infrastruktura nije. Mislim, bila su mjesta rezervirana za bolnicu, crkvu, sportsku dvoranu... Mnoge nisu nikada izgrađene. Razlog je taj što se radilo o komunističkoj upravi, a središnja je vlada davala novac, no manje komunističkoj upravi. Kasnije su izgubili izbore. Novoj se vlasti nisam svidio, tako da je projekt stao. Kuće su se počele mijenjati, kao na primjer stvari koje su bile u potpunosti ispravne i još uvijek postoje, poput drvenih prozorskih okvira. Svaka bi izborna kampanja to žestoko napadala: pokušavali su nas nagovoriti da koristimo aluminij, a ne drvo, itd. Postoji i normalna prilagodba ljudi na zgradu – primjerice, patio; glavna je ideja bila staviti pergolu, koja je također tradicionalna, no neku su ljudi tu posadili drvo, neki ga popločili mramorom, a neki stavili betonskog lava. Dosta je tu stvari: neki su kuće obojili u ne baš krasne boje, no to se prilično konsolidiralo čak i bez infrastrukture. Po meni tu zajednicu čini iznimno konsolidiranom jednostavna povezanost s gradom.

oris

Tu se postavlja i pitanje participacije. Radili ste s budućim korisnicima, razgovarali sa stanovnicima o projektu, a jednom ste rekli da je veliki gubitak što je participacija tako brzo zaboravljena u našoj profesiji. S druge strane, rekli bismo da je dijalog s klijentima

siza

All the houses were made in the first step. Unhappi-ly, the facilities were not made. I mean, there were spaces reserved for facilities like a clinic, a church, a sports hall… Many were never done. The reason is that this was a communist administration and the central government was giving the money, but less to the communist administrations. Later, they lost elections. The new government did not like me, so it stopped. The houses began receiving changes, of course, like things that were absolutely exact and still exist like making the windows in wood. Each election campaign would bring a tremendous attack on this: trying to persuade us to use aluminium and not wood, and so on. Also, there is the normal adaptation of people to the houses – for instance, the patio, where the main idea was to have a pergola, which is also traditional, but some people put in a tree, others put marble in the ground, and some put a cement lion. A lot of things: some put colorus here, and some colours were not so beautiful, but it has rather consolidated even without the facilities. The easy connection with the town makes it, in my opinion, a much consolidated community.

oris

There is also the question of participation. You worked with the future users, discussed the project with the inhabitants, and somewhere you said it was a great loss that such participation was forgotten so quickly

obiteljskih kuća, građanskim klijentima, nužnost za svakog arhitekta. Možete li to komentirati?

siza

Bilo je to nakon revolucije, 1974. godine. Takav rad ranije nije bio moguć. Imao sam nešto iskustva u projektiranju obiteljskih kuća. Jedna od zanimljivih stvari kod toga je da obično imate sugovornika. Kod obiteljskih kuća obično razgovaramo s vlasnikom, suprugom, susjedima… Postoji bogato ozračje i mo-tivacija da se projekt izradi na odgovarajući način. Socijalna stanogradnja je prije tog vremena, a i sada opet, bila vrlo siromašna, napravite X kuća s tri sobe i Y s dvije sobe, ne znate tko će u njima živjeti, itd. To je vrlo siromašno za arhitekturu, za disciplinu. Razlog siromaštva većine socijalnih kuća jest upravo nepostojanje dijaloga, motivacije niti jasnog cilja. Bio je to naporan posao u ono vrijeme. Atmosfera u Portugalu bila je puna sukoba. Većini arhitekata je to postalo neugodno, stoga smo više radili sa stu-dentima u timovima. Bilo je vrlo neugodno objasniti i obraniti svoje ideje pred tristo ljudi koji vam govore da niste ništa drugo nego buržoaski arhitekt. Osim što je bilo teško i neugodno, bilo je i loše plaćeno. Socijalna stanogradnja se uvijek loše plaćala. Sva-ka zemlja skida od normalnog honorara 20 do 30% jer se radi o socijalnim stanovima, dok ja smatram da bi honorar upravo zato trebao biti 30% viši. Isto tako, to nije bilo u modi; arhitekti koji su radili na takvom projektu smatrani su lošim arhitektima. Ne bez razloga, jer su neke grozne stvari napravljene u tim programima koji su vjerojatno bili izgovori za lošu arhitekturu. Imam iskustvo sa sličnim projektom iz Nizozemske, no na drugačiji način, nizozemski način, s više discipline i potpore. Bio je to vrlo zanimljiv pro-jekt. Moj prijedlog je odobren uz potporu korisnika, budući da ga tehničari nisu htjeli odobriti. Prijedlog je rješavao tadašnje probleme ljudi onako kako su mi ih opisali. Projekt nije odobren, sve je proslijeđeno parlamentu, gdje su ga na koncu odobrile stranke desnice. Nevjerojatno – nisu ga odobrile stranke ljevice. Za mene je to bilo tužno.

oris

Sad nešto vezano za taj projekt socijalne stanogradnje za imigrante u Hagu, posebice u zgradi De Punkt en De Komma. Tamo ste nadvladali sve tehničke probleme i programske specifičnosti stanara. Možete li objasniti specifičnosti projekta?

siza

Imigranti su činili 50% stanovništva u tom području. Bilo je sukoba i problema. Većina je imigranata bilo islamske vjeroispovijesti. Njihova tradicija traži da imaju privatnost u svojim kućama. Jedan od njih

in our profession. On the other hand, we would say that the dialogue with the clients of single family houses, with bourgeois clients, is a necessity for any architect. Can you comment on this?

siza

It was after the revolution, in 1974. Such work was not possible before. I had had some experience with making family houses. One of the interesting things about it is that there is usually an interlocutor.So we usually discuss family houses with the owner, the wife, the neighbours… There is a rich atmosphere and motivation to make the project properly. Social housing, before this time, and in a way again, was a very poor thing: you make X houses with three rooms and Y houses with two rooms, you do not know who is going to live there, and so on. That is very poor for architecture, for the discipline. The reason why most social housing is so poor is that there is no dialog, no motivation, and no clear objective. At the time, it was very hard work; the atmosphere in Portugal was full of conflicts. It became uncomfortable for most architects, so we worked more with students in teams. It was very uncomfortable to have three hundred people saying: “You are nothing but a bourgeois architect,” to have to explain and defend your ideas. It was not only hard and uncomfortable, but also badly paid. Social housing is always badly paid. Every country discounts the normal fees 20 to 30 per cent, because it is social housing, while I said it should be 30 per cent more. It was also not fashionable, since an architect working in such a project was considered a bad architect. Not without reason, however, because some horrible things were made in those programs, which were probably excuses for bad architecture. Then I had an experience in Holland, same kind of project, but in a different way, the Dutch way, with more discipline and support. It was a very interesting project. I received the approval for my proposal with the support of the users, because the technician did not want to approve my proposal. It was related to people’s problems then as they explained them. The project was not approved, and then it went to the parliament, where it was approved by the parties of the right. That is the incredible thing – it was not approved by the left. For me, it was a sad thing.

oris

Regarding that project in the Hague, the social housing scheme for immigrants, especially in the De Punkt en De Komma building, you overcame the technical prob-lems, the programmatic specifics of the inhabitants. Can you explain the specifics of this project?

siza

Immigrants made up fifty percent of the population in that area. There were conflicts and problems. Most of

Naselje socijalnih stanova Bouça /Social Housing Bouça, Porto, Portugal, 1975.-1977. fotografija / photo by Oris

24

mi je objasnio: “Ako dovedem kući prijatelje, ne želim da vide moju suprugu”. Isto tako nisu htjeli uobičajenu stvar u tamošnjim socijalnim stanovima: otvorite ulazna vrata i tu vas čeka WC. Uprava je htjela udovoljiti imigrantima jer bi sljedeće godine mogli glasovati za njih. Predložili su da naprave dio kuća za muslimanske obitelji i dio za druge. Ja sam to odbio jer bi se radilo o dvostrukoj segregaciji. Morali smo pronaći zgradu koja bi bila dobra za sve. Projektirali smo hodnik s kliznim vratima kojima se može odvojiti društveni dio kuće od privatnog dijela. Postoji pristupni prostor, ustvari dvostruki prostor s kliznim vratima. Svidio se svima, budući da su time Nizozemci dobili malo više prostora u kući, a drugi su si mogli organizirati život. Jednostavna bi kritika tvrdila da je to reakcionarno jer što je onda s pravi-ma žena i razvojem društva? Odgovorio sam da ne možemo reći tim ljudima da se promijene preko noći. Oni su stoljećima živjeli u drugačijoj kulturi. Suludo je tvrditi da je to reakcionarno. U dvije generacije, možda čak i u jednoj, oni će se promijeniti jer će imati drugačije iskustvo života. No mnogo je ljudi koji to ne razumiju ili ih to ne zanima. Mogao sam to napraviti i u drugoj grupi zgrada nedaleko odande, no one su tada već bile dovršene. Ne mislim da bi to imalo utjecaja na budućnost. Usred projekta, što je bilo vrlo zamorno budući da sam imao ured u Amster-damu, administrator mi je rekao da su uredili mali park između tih zgrada i podzemnu garažu. @eljeli su da napravim još dvije kuće i trgovinu biciklima s pristupom garaži. Trebalo je napraviti znak intervenci-je, vrlo specifičnu građevinu. Toliko mi je dosadilo projektiranje stanova, da sam u jednoj noći napravio jedan “ludi” projekt, no s razlogom. U Nizozemskoj sam naišao na vrlo staromodnu raspravu o bijeloj i ciglenoj arhitekturi. Bila je to intenzivna i autentična rasprava iz 30-ih godina: modernisti su bili bijeli, dok je amsterdamska škola na to reagirala ciglama, na stari način. U Njemačkoj je cigla također bila stara, a bijelo eksplozivno, no to je bilo davno. Odlučio sam napraviti jednu zgradu od cigle i jednu bijelu kako bih dokazao da zajedno mogu tvoriti cjelinu.

oris

Naglašavate važnost stvarnosti, baratanja realnošću. U svojim govorima o podučavanju negdje ste rekli da podučavanje arhitekture mora biti stvarno. Bojimo se da je takav stav u suprotnosti sa sustavom zvijezda u arhitekturi. U mnogim slučajevima nastavu više ne zanima stvarnost.

siza

U mnogim slučajevima ne. U neku ruku stvaraju se drugi instrumenti koji kontaktiraju sa stvarnošću. U praksi nekih važnih arhitekata možemo vidjeti što se

the immigrants were Islamic. According to their tradi-tion, they needed privacy in the houses. One of them explained to me, “If I go to my house with friends, I do not want them to see my wife”. Then they did not want what was usual in the social housing there: you open the main door and there is the toilet. The administration wanted to satisfy the immigrants because they would vote the next year. They proposed to make a part of the houses for Islamic families and a part for the others. I said no, it would be a double segregation. We had to find a house that would be good for everybody. There is a corridor with sliding doors where you can separate the social area of the house from the intimate area with a big sliding door. There is an access space, actu-ally a double space, with sliding doors. It appealed to everybody, because the Dutch had a little more space in the house, and the others could organize their life. An easy criticism is to say: it is reactionary, what about the rights of women and social evolution? But I said we could not tell these people to suddenly change. They had centuries of a different culture. It is crazy to say this is reactionary. In two generations, maybe even one, they will change, because they will have another experience of life. But there are many people who do not understand or are not interested in this. I could have done that in another group of houses nearby, but then it was finished. I do not think it would have influence in the future. In the middle of the project, which was very

mijenja u kontaktu sa stvarnošću. Doista je potre-bna mjera, krhka ravnoteža. Podučavati arhitekturu je zanimljivo, mogu se uključiti sve stvari. Ako ne dođu u kontakt s njom u školi, mnogi ljudi dolaze u kontakt sa stvarnošću vani, što može dovesti do različitih problema. No ipak, arhitektonska djela na koncu ovise o onome što je stvarno. Neki ljudi počinju s virtualnim crtežima, sve je vrlo lijepo, potom dobiju prvi, drugi, treći posao i možete vidjeti kako se stvari mijenjaju.

Socijalno stanovanje Schilderswijk/Schilderswijk Social Housing Project, Hag/The Hague, Nizozem-ska/The Netherlands, 1983.-1988.

Alvaro Siza sa stanarima / Alvaro Siza with inhabitants

tlocrt / plan

situacija / siteplan

fotografija/photo by

Christian Richters

26

oris

Vaša crkva Santa Maria u Canavezesu vrlo je poetična, no vi ste opisali mnoge njene detalje kroz vrlo stvarne, svakodnevne stvari, poput osobe koja izlazi, puši ili promatra kroz vodoravni prozor život grada…

siza

Da, to su sve vrlo važne stvari. Postoji specijalizirana ideja religijske arhitekture, no rezultati su obično loši. Pjesma vam ne dolazi zato što vi želite biti pjesnik, ona dolazi jer postoje uvjeti za nju.

oris

Vezano za Santa Mariju, William Curtis uspoređuje Canavezes i Le Corbusierovu kapelicu u Ronchampu smatrajući da obje uvode društveno značenje kroz crkvu, uvode koncept koji stvara društvenu strukturu, društveni centar pomoću vjerskih građevina. Rečeno je da je vrlo važna stvar horizontalni usjek u tijelo crkve; radi se o vrlo visokom, prostranom, spiritualnom prostoru, no kad netko sjedne, obzor se otvara kroz horizontalni prozor koji na neki način nudi opuštanje ljudima koji su unutra. Ali postoje druga pitanja vezana

tiring, as I had an office in Amsterdam, the adminis-trator told me they made a small park in the middle of those houses and an underground parking lot. They told me they wanted me to make two houses and a bicycle shop with an access to the garage, which was already built, to create a sign of intervention, a very special building. I was so tired of making apartments that I made a crazy design in one night, but with a reason. There was a discussion I found in Holland, which was very old-fashioned, between white archi-tecture and brick architecture. It was an intense and authentic discussion from the thirties: the moderns were white, while the Amsterdam school was reacting with brick, in the old way. In Germany, too, brick was old and white was explosive, but that was a long time ago. I decided to make one brick house and one white house to prove they can make up a whole.

oris

You stressed the importance of reality, of dealing with the real. Somewhere, when talking about teaching, you said that teaching architecture has to be real. We are afraid that this view is in opposition

uz crkvu: tajna visokih vrata, mjerilo (budući da se radi o vrlo visokom prostoru), kip Marije koji je na razini ljudi. Vi ste također radili kao kipar i crtač; vaši su crteži na pločicama također vrlo karakteristični za tu crkvu. Biste li rekli da je crkva u Canavezesu ključan projekt u vašem radu?

siza

Projektiranje te crkve i njezina izgradnja bili su za mene dobro iskustvo, pravo zadovoljstvo, prvenstveno zato što je svećenik bio fantastična osoba. Više nije svećenik, priprema magistarski rad iz filozofije na temu arhitekture. Stvarno se koncentrirao na taj projekt, tim više što je bilo problema s njegovim prihvaćanjem. Crkvena hijerarhija je tvrdila da sam ateist. Pitao sam ih kako znaju, budući da to nikada nisam rekao. Svećenik se jako borio za to da se meni dodijeli projekt, čak je prijetio da će napustiti župu. Nešto kasnije su me prihvatili, možda zato što je biskup doznao da mi je sestra redovnica, što je jako pomoglo. Svećenik je stvarno osnovao zajednicu, aktivnu zajednicu, i to ne samo vjers-ku, nego i kulturološki organiziranu, s izložbama,

with the star system in architecture. In many cases it is not interested in reality any more.

siza

Many times it is not. In a way, it gives other instruments that are making contact with reality. In the practice of some important architects I can see what is changing in the contact with reality. There is a measure needed, a difficult equilibrium. Learning architecture is inter-esting, all things get inside. When they do not come inside the school, at least, for many people, it comes into contact with the reality outside, which can bring different troubles. In the end, however, architectural work is dependent on what is real. Some people begin with virtual drawings, all very beautiful, but then they get a first, second, third job, and you can see how things change.

oris

Your church of Santa Maria in Canavezes is very poetic, but you described many details through very real, everyday things, like somebody going out, hav-

Crkva Sv. Marije / Santa Maria Church, Marco de Canavez-es, Portugal, 1990.-1996. fotografija / photo by Christian Richters

28

ing a cigarette or looking out through the horizontal window to the city life…

siza

Those are very important things, yes. There is a special-ized idea of religious architecture, but the results are usually bad. A poem does not come because you want to be a poet; it comes because there are conditions for it.

oris

In connection with Santa Maria, William Curtis com-pared Canavezes and a chapel by Le Corbusier- Ron-champ in the sense that both are installing a social meaning through the church, installing a concept that creates a social structure, a social centre, by means of a religious building. It was said that a very impor-tant thing is the horizontal incision in the body of the church; it is a very high, wide, spiritual space, but when somebody sits, the horizon is opened through the hori-zontal strip window so it relieves in a way the people who are inside. But there are other questions about the church: the secret of the high door; the scale, since it is a very high space; the statue of Mary which is on the human level. You also acted as a sculptor and a draftsman; your drawings are on the tiles, which are very characteristic of this church. Would you say that the Canavezes church is a crucial project in your work?

siza

The project of this church and its construction was a very good experience, very gratifying for me, firstly because the priest was a fantastic person. But he is no longer a priest; he is doing a master’s degree in philosophy, a master’s degree about architecture. He really concentrated much on this project, even more so since there were problems about it being accepted. In the church hierarchy, it was said that I was an atheist. I asked how they knew. I never said I was an atheist. He fought very much for the project to be given to me, even threatened he would leave the parish. Then I was accepted, maybe because the bishop discovered that I had a sister who is a nun. It helped a lot. The priest really founded a community. There was an active community, not only religiously, but culturally organized, with exhibi-tions, amateur painters, theatre, a real community. He presented me to the theologians of Porto. We had very interesting discussions, because the church was made in a difficult time for architecture, Catholic architecture, after the Second Vatican Council changed things. Many things in the history of religious architecture now serve for nothing. You cannot make a golden, rich, apse when you turn your back to it. That is the interesting thing about church architecture today. The theologians were also very interesting, because in a way they were going on with discussions, they were in disagreement. There

slikarima-amaterima, kazalištem, pravu zajednicu. Upoznao me s teolozima iz Porta. Vodili smo vrlo zanimljive rasprave, budući da je crkva izgrađena u teško vrijeme za arhitekturu, katoličku arhitekturu, nakon što je Drugi vatikanski koncil mnogo toga promijenio. Mnoge stvari u povijesti sakralne ar-hitekture sada ne služe ničemu. Ne možete napraviti zlatnu, bogatu apsidu ako joj okrećete leđa. To je zanimljivo u današnjoj crkvenoj arhitekturi. Teolozi su isto bili vrlo zanimljivi jer su na neki način nastavljali s raspravama, ali bilo je neslaganja. Bilo je dosta napetosti unutar Rimokatoličke crkve jer je nastala neka vrst praznine. Prvi eksperimenti nakon Drugog vatikanskog koncila bili su usmjereni ka izgradnji crkava nalik na amfiteatre ili kružnog oblika, s ide-jom demokracije i sudjelovanja. Nije mi se svidjela takva orijentacija arhitekture jer je nešto u atmosferi nedostajalo. U amfiteatru se nisam osjećao sposob-nim koncentrirati, vjerski ili bilo kako drugačije, na svoje intimne probleme, jer je amfiteatar mjesto za rasprave. Odgojen sam u katoličkom duhu, svake smo nedjelje išli na misu i imao sam mnoga sjećanja na dječje osjećaje poput nelagode jer je crkva bila vrlo mračna, tužna i zatvorena, imao sam potrebu izaći van za vrijeme propovijedi, a poslije izaći zapaliti cigaretu, kao što su to odrasli činili, samo u tajnosti.

Sve mi se te stvari vraćaju; ko-liko su samo tajnoviti za mene bili crkveni prozori. Zbog svih tih misterija i strasti smatrao sam da ima smisla postaviti prozore vrlo visoko. Primjerice, prolaz u sredini, za koji neki tvrde da je previše konzervativan, kako mi je to objasnio jedan teolog. Imao sam pristup obližnjem oltaru, no rekli su mi da bi mor-ali ići tako da prođu pokraj svih ljudi i pozdrave ih. To su, dakle, bile funkcionalne stvari vezane za vrlo staru upotrebu, kulturu, rasprave i tako dalje, koje sam htio uključiti u svoje promišljan-je. Vodoravni prozor… Crkva se nalazi na vrlo visokom mjestu koje gleda na prekrasnu dolinu. Druga ideja bila je potreba za slobodom – izaći van na trenu-tak, baciti pogled. Jedna mi je gospođa rekla da se ne može koncentrirati u crkvi. Sviđa joj se, samo taj prozor... Ako se stvarno želite koncentrirati, ne gledate kroz prozor. To je jedno od mojih zanimljivijih sjećanja na čitav taj proces.

oris

Čini se da niste bili toliko zainter-esirani za simboličke elemente koliko za stvari koje ste opisali – svjetlo, vodu, zvuk vode, što stvara atmosferu koja je daleko produhovljenija i poetskija. Kako vidite odnos između poetskog i simboličkog?

siza

Mnogi su mislili da sam tu htio uvesti stvari koje bi bile sim-boličke. Smatram, međutim, da simbol nije nešto što stva-rate, već je nešto što se konk-retizira kroz život i iskustvo. Imao sam taj problem, odnosno preokupaciju. Sjećam se da sam svećeniku postavio mnogo pitanja o simbolima. Kupio sam knjige o simbolima. Svećenik mi je rekao da ne razmišljam o tome jer to nije bitno. Rekao mi

were many tensions inside the Catholic Church, because there was a void. The first experiments after the Second Vatican Council were made in the direction of the church as an amphitheatre or a circle, with the idea of democracy and participation. I did not like this orientation in architecture, because something was missing in the atmosphere. I did not feel able to concentrate, religiously or not, on my intimate problems in an amphitheatre, which is a place of debate. I had a Catholic education as a child, I went to church every Sunday and had many memories, childish sensa-tions, like being uncomfortable because the church was very dark, sad and closed; the need to go outside during the priest’s speech and gradually to smoke cigarettes as adults did, but se-cretively. All these things came back; how mysterious in my mind those church windows were. Be-cause of all these mysteries and passions, it made sense to put the windows very high. For instance, the corridor in the center, which some say is too conservative as one of the theologians explained it to me. I had access to the altar nearby, but he said, “No, we must go by the other side and then through all the people to greet them”. So, there were functional things related to a very old use, culture, debate and so on, which I wanted to include in the think-ing about this. The horizontal window… this is on a high place overlooking a wonderful valley. The other idea was the need I had for the freedom to go outside for a moment, to have a view of that. Then a lady said to me, “I cannot concentrate in this church, I like it very much, but that window…” But if you really want to concen-trate, you do not look through the window. This is one of the more interesting memories I have of the whole process.

Katedrala / Cathedral, Monreale, Sicilija / Sicily, 12 st. / 12 century

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je da danas nije toliko važno da oltar gleda prema istoku. Ipak, okrenuo sam ga prema istoku. Znao sam da moram postaviti neke stvari, kao npr. križ, lik Djevice Marije, no svećenik mi je rekao da ne želi puno stvari, samo Majku Božju i križ. Pokušao sam pronaći nekoga tko bi mi napravio križ. Nisam htio staviti stari križ. Križ u staroj crkvi nije bio dobar. Bio je loš, izrađen 20-ih godina. Potom sam vidio radove lokalnih kipara i slikara, no pomislio sam kako postoji pogreška u vjerskoj umjetnosti, tako da sam ga odlučio sam izraditi. Moji prvi pokušaji bili su katastrofa. Shvatio sam zašto ne rade dobre stvari. Crkva je otvorena s posuđenim križem jer ga ja nisam znao napraviti. Svećenik mi je rekao da si uzmem vremena koliko želim. Nakon toga uslijedile su rasprave kamo smjestiti križ, koji je prije bio u središtu, između dva prozora. To mi se nije sviđalo, djelovalo mi je previše osovinski. Dvije godine sam iskušavao različite stvari. Napravio sam mnoštvo skica. Na kraju smo se odlučili za zlatni križ. Kad ga vidite, imate dojam da je na njemu tijelo. U katoličan-stvu križ obično na sebi ima i tijelo. Kod protestanata to nije slučaj. Morao sam naći nešto što podsjeća na tijelo. I vrata, velika vrata. To je također sjećanje na posjet svetištu Monreale kraj Palerma. Kad sam došao tamo, vrata su bila otvorena, ogromna vrata.

oris

It seems you were not that much interested in sym-bolic elements, but more in things like the ones you described – the light, the water, the sound of water – to create an atmosphere which is more spiritual and poetic. How do you see the relation between the poetic and the symbolic?

siza

Many suspected I wanted to introduce symbolic things. I think a symbol is not something you create. It is some-thing that is made concrete through life and experience. I had that problem or preoccupation. I remember I asked the priest many questions about symbols. I bought books about symbols. The priest told me, “Do not think about that, it is not important.” He told me that turning the altar to the east was not so important today. Still, I turned it to the east. I knew I had to put some things, like the cross, of course, the Virgin’s image, but the priest told me he did not want many things, only the Virgin and the cross. I tried to find someone to do a cross. I did not want to put the old cross. In the old church, there was not a good old cross. There was a bad one, made in the twenties. Then I saw the work of local sculptors and painters, but I thought that there was a failure in religious art. So I decided to make one myself. My first tries with sketches

Na kraju se nalazio mozaik Krista Pantokratora. Prekrasno, nezaboravno. Zlatni mozaik. Morao sam realizirati tu ideju ogromnih vrata. Kad dođe vrijeme, otvaramo vrata i puštamo ljude unutra.

oris

Možete li nam reći koliko su arhitektima važni crteži? Naš časopis pripremio je izložbu skica arhitekata. Svakog arhitekta o kojem smo pisali zamolili smo da nam izradi za izložbu originalnu skicu napravljenu ru-kom. Uočili smo kako mnogi mlađi arhitekti uopće ne uzimaju olovku u ruke, nego su nam samo poslali neke stvari s računala ili deklaracije. Crtež gubi važnost koju je imao još prije dvadesetak godina. Pa ipak, postoji izravan prijenos između uma i ruke. Vi cijelo vrijeme crtate. Što vi mislite o tome?

siza

To mi se sviđa. Ustvari, ja sam frustrirani kipar. Htio sam biti kipar. Slikao sam prije odlaska u školu, slikao akvarele… Stalno crtam. To je zadovoljstvo, a predstavlja i oslobođenje. Kao što znate, arhitek-tura je težak posao. Najljepši tekst koji poznajem napisao je Aalto, u kojem piše: “Ponekad dok radim na projektu, blokiram se. Zatim stanem i crtam, slikam, ne razmišljam o projektu. Ponekad iz toga

were a disaster. I understood why they did not do good things. The church was opened with a borrowed cross, because I was not able to make one. The priest said, “OK, take your time, we will put another one in.” Then we had many discussions about the position of the cross, which used to be in the centre, between the two windows. I did not like it, it was too axial. I tried many things for two years. I made a lot of sketches. In the end, it is the golden piece, when you see it you have the feeling of a body there. In Catholicism, the cross usually must have the body. The Protestants do not do that. So I had to find a suggestion of a body, something like that. And a door, a big door. It is also a memory that I had from a visit to the Sanctuary of Monreale by Palermo. I arrived there, the door was open, an enormous door. At the end, you could see Christ Pantocrator in a mosaic. Wonderful, un-forgettable. A golden mosaic. That idea of an enormous door… I had to put it there. When the time is right, we open the door and the people come.

oris

Can you tell us about the importance of drawings for architects? Our magazine prepared an exhibition of architects’ sketches. Every architect published by our magazine was asked to give a sketch for the exhibition, made by hand and original. We saw that many younger architects do not even take a pencil in their hand; they

Portugalski pavil-jon / Portoguese Pavilion, EXPO 98, Lisabon, Portugal fotografija / photo by Christian Richters

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nastane ideja koja mi omogući nastavak projekta.” To je oslobađajuća stvar: toliko ste opsjednuti raznim problemima – ekonomskim, funkcionalnim i drugim – da se vrlo jednostavno zablokirati, pa je ovakvo zadovoljstvo dobrodošlo. To je, osim toga, najbrži način komunikacije; kada radite s nekim i želite mu pokazati što želite ili želite sebi nacrtati shemu, možete je nacrtati u sekundi. Na računalu takvih izravnih vježbi nema. Kao instrument arhitekture crtež je nezamjenjiv. No može biti i porok. Skica je samo skica. Ljudi ponekad žele od mene skicu, a ja im to nisam u stanju dostaviti, to je nešto spontano. Slika je druga stvar, slika je razrađenija. To je vrlo oslobađajuće i vrlo izravan oblik komunikacije, sa sobom i sa drugima.

oris

Napravili ste i mnoge modele.

siza

Da, kako bih uštedio na vremenu. Moramo men-talno stvoriti prostore i prolaziti njima. To možete postići i bez ikakvih crteža; projekt možete izgraditi i mentalno. No za to je potrebno puno više vremena i napora. Ako možete izraditi model u koji možete ući, to nije jednako dobra stvar kao sama zgrada dok se gradi. No ako imate više projekata, ne možete toliko ići okolo. U svom uredu imam modele – velike ili male, ovisno o fazi – no u fazi izvršnih nacrta, čak i prije njih, morate imati kontrolu puno brže, puno rigoroznije. Virtualne slike nisu ista stvar, iako su korisne. Trenutno radimo na još jednom projektu u Koreji, na jednom muzeju.

oris

Možete li nam ga pokazati?

siza

Ne, budući da ga ne razvijam u svom uredu, nego u uredu mog bivšeg suradnika koji je otvorio svoj ured; radimo to zajednički. Napravio je ogroman model. Možete sjesti u stolicu na kotačićima i ući u zgradu. Fantastičan je, ne možete ni zamisliti koliko vremena uštedi. Prije toga sam radio mnogo skica interijera, mnogo nacrta. No kod ovakvog modela možete ući u zgradu, što je fantastično, posebice ako ne možete otići na lokaciju, u ovom primjeru Koreju. No model mora biti ogroman.

oris

Projekt Portugalskog paviljona za Expo u Lisabonu, koji ste napravili 1998. godine, povezali bi s vašim ranim projektima, također izgrađenim blizu oceana, koji gledaju na more. U ovom slučaju radi se o rijeci,

sent some computer things or declarations. It is losing the importance it still had twenty years ago. And yet, there is this direct transfer from the mind to the hand. You draw all the time, what do you think about it?

siza

I like it. In fact, I am a frustrated sculptor. I wanted to be a sculptor. I painted before entering the school, I made watercolours… I always draw. It is a pleasure, but also a liberation. As you know, architecture is a very hard job. The most beautiful text I know was written by Aalto, a small text, where he says: “Sometimes I am working on a project and I get blocked. Then I stop and make drawings, paintings, without thinking about the project. Sometimes they produce an idea that makes it possi-ble to go on with the project.” It is that liberating thing: you are obsessed by so many problems – economic, functional etc. – that it is easy to get blocked, so this pleasure-time is very good. Also, it is the quickest way to communicate; when you work with someone and want to show him what you want or even to show yourself in a schematic way, you draw it in seconds. You cannot have such a direct exercise on a computer. As an instrument of architecture, it is irreplaceable. But it can also be a vice. A sketch is just a sketch. Sometimes people want a sketch from me, and I am not able to do it, it is some-thing spontaneous. A painting is another thing, more elaborate. It is very liberating and a very direct form of communication, with yourself and with others.

oris

You also make many models.

siza

To save time. We need to mentally create spaces and walk through them. You can do it without drawing any-thing; you can build a project mentally. But it takes much more time and it is a terrible effort. If you can make a model where you can enter, this is not as good as going to the building itself when it is being constructed. But if you have a number of projects, you cannot go around so much. In the office, I have models – big or small, depending on the phase – but in the phase of executive drawings, and even before, you have to control more quickly, more rigorously. Virtual images are not the same thing, although they are useful. Now I am making another project in Korea, for a museum.

oris

Can you show us?

siza

No, because it is not being developed in my practice here, but by an ex-collaborator who now has his own practice, we are doing it together. He made an enormous

no ona je gotovo poput mora. Gledan s mora, vaš paviljon nalikuje na carski trijem. No s druge strane je više nalik velikom prozoru koji uokviruje pogled na more i obzor. Nalik je Portugalu, koji uvijek gleda na ocean s ruba Europe. Na neki način mi smo na drugom kraju Europe, na početku Balkana, također na periferiji. Možete li komentirati činjenicu života na periferiji? Je li to privilegija u ovo doba globalizacije ili još uvijek nosi sa sobom negativne konotacije?

siza

To otežava stvari. Danas imate sva silna komunikaci-jska i transportna sredstva, no to još uvijek nije udob-no kao da ste npr. u Švicarskoj, u središtu. Pročitao sam pismo koje je Le Corbusier poslao jednom svom prijatelju. Corbusier je imao izložbu svojih skulptura u Švicarskoj i komentirao je to ovako: “Slušaj me, prijatelju, Le Corbusier je u središtu svijeta”. Bio je sretan zbog toga. Nije isto biti ovdje, no more je predivna stvar. Ne može vam biti bolje od ovoga. Globalizacija i turizam su krenuli tako atraktivno, no pretvorili su se u katastrofu. Uz to, mala zemlja ima više zapreka u uspostavljanju ravnoteže na svom teritoriju jer svi žele doći ovamo, sve je više turista, a njihova je koncentracija ogromna i destruktivna. No što se odnosa tiče, više nije kao u stara vremena, jer ne radi se samo o Europi nego o čitavom svijetu. Na primjer, lakše mi je otići u Brazil nego u Švicarsku. No sada bi zbog koncentracije zračnih luka vjerojatno morao prvo otići u Švicarsku kako bih došao do Bra-zila. To je kreativna zbrka, nadam se da je kreativna. No ipak, teško je živjeti na periferiji.

oris

Imali smo na umu pitanje autentičnosti malog mjerila koji su se izgubili u velikim europskim gradovima, koji postaju sve više nalik jedan drugome. No na ovoj ćemo periferiji još uvijek naći autentična mjesta, što sma-tramo privilegijom. Rekli bismo da u arhitektonskom smislu najzanimljiviji projekti ne dolaze više iz središta, nego s periferije.

siza

Iza toga stoji duga priča. Pogledajte važnost Alvara Aalta. Bio je uspješan u Južnoj Europi upravo zbog nekih afiniteta. U vašoj zemlji također. Postoji vrlo snažna želja da se ode daleko, posebice ako se radi o maloj zemlji. U isto vrijeme postoji način da se okrenu leđa drugim stvarima koje su u tijeku. Povijest Portugala je takva: Španjolska, Pirineji, svijet. Smiješna je priča o Portugalu i Španjolskoj. Portugal je vrlo brzo dobio neovisnost, dok se ujedinjenje Španjolske dogodilo tek u 16. stoljeću. I to i zemljopis kazuju da se radi o dvije zemlje. Ne-davno smo raspravljali o tome kako će Španjolska

model. You can sit in a moveable chair and enter the building. It is fantastic, you cannot imagine how much time it saves. Before, I used to do many sketches of the interior, lots of sketchbooks. But if you have such a model, you can go inside. Especially if you cannot go to the site, which is in Korea in this case, it is fantastic. But it must be big.

oris

The project for the Portuguese Pavilion for Expo in Lisbon you did in 1998. We would relate it with your early projects, also done near the ocean, facing the sea. In this case it is a river, but it is almost like a sea. Seen from the sea your Pavilion seems like an imperial portico. But from the other side it is more like a large window framing the view to the sea, the horizon. It is like Portugal itself, always facing the ocean at the edge of Europe. In a way, we are at the other edge of Europe, at the beginning of the Balkans, also on the periphery. Can you comment on the fact of being on the periphery? Is it a privilege in this age of globalization or does it still have a negative connotation?

siza

It makes things difficult. Today you have all these means of communication and transport, but it is still not such a comfortable thing as being in Switzerland, in the centre. I read a letter written by Le Corbusier to a friend. He had an exhibition of sculpture in Switzerland, and commented, “Look, my friend, Le Corbusier is in the centre of the world,” he was happy with that. It is not the same to be here, but the sea is a wonderful thing. You cannot have it better than this. Globalization and tourism, it began so attractively, but it turns into disasters. Also, for a small country, there are more obstacles to achieve equilibrium in the territory, be-cause everybody wants to come here, more tourists, a tremendous and destructive concentration. But as for the relations, it is not as it was in the old times, because it is not only Europe, it is the whole world. For instance, I could go to Brazil easier than a Swiss. But now, with the concentration of the airports, I probably have to go to Switzerland to go to Brazil. It is a creative confusion, I hope it is creative. Still, it is difficult to be on the periphery.

oris

We had in mind the issue of authenticity, of small scale, which has been lost in the big cities of Europe, which are becoming all alike, very similar. But in this periph-ery we will still find authentic places, which we see as a privilege. Also, in terms of architecture, we would say that the most interesting projects are not coming from the centre any more, but from the periphery.

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siza

There is a long story behind that. Look at the importance of Alvar Aalto. He had such success in South Europe because of some affinities. In your country, too. There is a very strong appeal to go far, especially if it is a small country. At the same time, there is a way to turn back to the other things going on. The history of Portugal is like that: Spain, the Pyrenees, and the world. It is a funny story – Portugal and Spain. Portuguese independence happened very soon, while the Spanish unification came about only in the 16th century. This, and the geography, means these are two countries. We were discussing recently about Spain probably becoming a federation. I think it will happen, it is not a problem, it is good in our opinion. The Spanish went to America, to the West, and we went to the East.

oris

There is also a young generation of architects in Por-tugal, rather strong. Regarding what you said about the school of Porto, can you say something about that young generation? Are you satisfied with the position of the young generation in Portugal?

siza

I am not satisfied with not belonging to the young gener-ation. Since the opening of the country, evidently, there were many influences and contacts from the outside, especially today, with all the student exchange programs. There are currently many tendencies and groups; it is the general atmosphere today. There is a search for answers to the actual situation; there are many opportunities for work. Today already, a number of Portuguese architects work abroad, while we had immigrants before, it was the other way round. It was also very good for architecture. We had Italians and Central Europeans here. You have something similar in your country, a concentration of cultures, a strong mix of cultures.

oris

Which young architects do you like?

siza

Many of them, but I do not want to say any names, mainly because I could forget someone. Still, I can tell you the name of a young architect that I appreciate; it is Souto de Moura, a great architect. But he is not the younger genera-tion any more, just younger than me. There are others who are very promising, inside and outside Portugal.

najvjerojatnije postati federacija. Mislim da će se to dogoditi, to nije problem; dapače, mi smatramo da je to dobro. Španjolci su otišli u Ameriku, na Zapad, a mi smo otišli na Istok.

oris

Postoji vrlo snažna mlada generacija portugalskih arhitekata. Vezano za ono što ste rekli o školi u Portu, možete li nam reći nešto o toj mladoj generaciji? Jeste li zadovoljni položajem mlade generacije u Portugalu?

siza

Nisam zadovoljan time što ne pripadam mladoj gen-eraciji. Od otvaranja zemlje očito je došlo mnogo utjecaja i kontakata izvana, posebice danas, uz sve ove programe razmjene studenata. Trenutno postoje mnoge tendencije i grupe; takva je opća atmosfera danas. Postoji traganje za odgovorima na trenutnu situaciju; mnogo je prilika za rad. Već i danas mnogi portugalski arhitekti rade vani, dok smo mi prije imali imigrante; situacija je bila obrnuta. To je također bilo iznimno dobro za arhitekturu. Dolazili su nam Talijani i ljudi iz Srednje Europe. Vi imate nešto slično u svo-joj zemlji – koncentraciju kultura, snažnu mješavinu kultura.

oris

Koje mlađe portugalske arhitekte cijenite?

siza

Mnoge, no ne želim navoditi nikakva imena jer bih mogao nekoga zaboraviti navesti. No mogu vam nav-esti ime jednog mladog arhitekta kojeg cijenim, to je Souto de Moura, sjajan arhitekt. No on više ne pripada mlađoj generaciji, samo je mlađi od mene. Ima i drugih koji obećavaju, i u Portugalu i izvan njega.

fotografija / photo by Luis Ferreira Alves